Aerial survey work
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Aerial survey work
Hi everyone - well here goes my first ever post, although I have followed Prune for many years without registering. Please go easy on me, I did my homework but couldn't find an answer to my specific question so would really appreciate some help...
I am considering undertaking some aerial survey work which has an 'environmental' focus; specifically the task is to count seabird populations over open water and coastal areas. This is not new stuff, but I can't ask the people who already do it as they might break my legs.
I have a current ATPL and medical etc (I fly for a UK airline), and my mate is a biologist who is qualified to do all the bird-spotting. The work would be done for a third party who would pay us for the scientific report. I assume that if I get some sort of rating I could hire an aircraft from somewhere.
Having read other threads and been very lost on the CAA website, I still don't understand how this activity would be defined: I guess it would be 'aerial work' (is my ATPL OK for this?), but opinion seems to differ as to whether such flying would require an AOC. I hope not, but wonder whether my buddy would be classified as a passenger? He would be responsible for a lot of the navigation so perhaps he is a crewmember as you could argue he would be in an operating capacity?
What about aircraft insurance and CofA - does anyone know the requirements? I have no intention of being economical with the truth regarding the real use of the aircraft.
Very grateful if anyone can help clarify a very confusing area - I'd really like to have some understanding of the rules before I go any further. Do you think I should speak to the CAA?
Thanks in advance!
I am considering undertaking some aerial survey work which has an 'environmental' focus; specifically the task is to count seabird populations over open water and coastal areas. This is not new stuff, but I can't ask the people who already do it as they might break my legs.
I have a current ATPL and medical etc (I fly for a UK airline), and my mate is a biologist who is qualified to do all the bird-spotting. The work would be done for a third party who would pay us for the scientific report. I assume that if I get some sort of rating I could hire an aircraft from somewhere.
Having read other threads and been very lost on the CAA website, I still don't understand how this activity would be defined: I guess it would be 'aerial work' (is my ATPL OK for this?), but opinion seems to differ as to whether such flying would require an AOC. I hope not, but wonder whether my buddy would be classified as a passenger? He would be responsible for a lot of the navigation so perhaps he is a crewmember as you could argue he would be in an operating capacity?
What about aircraft insurance and CofA - does anyone know the requirements? I have no intention of being economical with the truth regarding the real use of the aircraft.
Very grateful if anyone can help clarify a very confusing area - I'd really like to have some understanding of the rules before I go any further. Do you think I should speak to the CAA?
Thanks in advance!
Just to start the ball rolling - and you may get as many answers as responses with this being a very grey area in my view - I would suggest you do contact the CAA GA department. Their telephone number used to be 01293 573524. In my day, some 10 years ago, Bob Commander there was very helpful. Others may advise you to avoid contacting the CAA as they are regarded as 'the enemy' by some, but I feel that would be the safest course.
Perhaps someone who is more au fait with current CAA thinking on this type of activity can offer some further input here.
Good luck.
Perhaps someone who is more au fait with current CAA thinking on this type of activity can offer some further input here.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the advice, think I will call them. As far as I can make out, having read the ANO section and some CAA leaflets, it all hinges around the definition of 'passenger', and whether or not you could argue that the scientist is essential to the outcome of the exercise rather than being the purpose of it. All a bit woolly, so I wondered if anybody out there has experience of a precedent?
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Take care where you will be surveying and at what height. There are a lot of military (and civil) aircraft operating at the levels that you might be flying at.
With 1/2 the crew looking at birds the other half needs to doubling their lookout efforts.
Get some advice from the CAA about a NOTAM for your flights.
With 1/2 the crew looking at birds the other half needs to doubling their lookout efforts.
Get some advice from the CAA about a NOTAM for your flights.
I'd agree with consulting the CAA as the first port of call.
Also bear in mind that, at the moment, Things Are Changing. Regarding the definition of crew/passenger, it has always been woolly. And if I'm honest, I think the CAA knew that too and on occasional were ambiguous or even contradictory. However EASA is taking over and generally, aerial work doesn't look like it will be afforded the same level of wooly-ness as perhaps it has in the past - at least not at the moment.
So crew might be those required by aircraft certification only (i.e. just you), or include "flight attendants, examiners and those authorised to conduct tests" which was another one I heard, or anybody except fare-paying punters. Which way is the wind blowing today?
I fly survey for a client across Europe. In the past it's always been Aerial Work. Now, they're looking at whether they need to use an operator with an AOC simply because they're missing out on winning work due to our lack of one. National Authorities are increasingly asking for one before issuing survey permits, even though in the past it was considered 'too much' and not necessary.
The CAA published a document in 2005 called "Summary of the Meaning of Public Transport & Aerial Work". It may help, it may not. Going forward under EASA, it may become irrelevant. Click here.
As for low-level stuff, I agree with Bayete. Use the CANP procedures if applicable. Consider putting two pairs of eyes in the front seats if your own lookout with be compromised (eyes-in/eyes-down guidance systems, for example). Even at low-speeds, it can be startling how quickly you can end up in someone else's face if you're not giving the outside world the correct attention. Trust me; been there, done that.
If you're hiring an aircraft, I'd make sure it was on a Public CofA at a minimum (or whatever the new EASA equivalent of that is), to cover one's backside.
HTH - good luck.
Also bear in mind that, at the moment, Things Are Changing. Regarding the definition of crew/passenger, it has always been woolly. And if I'm honest, I think the CAA knew that too and on occasional were ambiguous or even contradictory. However EASA is taking over and generally, aerial work doesn't look like it will be afforded the same level of wooly-ness as perhaps it has in the past - at least not at the moment.
So crew might be those required by aircraft certification only (i.e. just you), or include "flight attendants, examiners and those authorised to conduct tests" which was another one I heard, or anybody except fare-paying punters. Which way is the wind blowing today?
I fly survey for a client across Europe. In the past it's always been Aerial Work. Now, they're looking at whether they need to use an operator with an AOC simply because they're missing out on winning work due to our lack of one. National Authorities are increasingly asking for one before issuing survey permits, even though in the past it was considered 'too much' and not necessary.
The CAA published a document in 2005 called "Summary of the Meaning of Public Transport & Aerial Work". It may help, it may not. Going forward under EASA, it may become irrelevant. Click here.
As for low-level stuff, I agree with Bayete. Use the CANP procedures if applicable. Consider putting two pairs of eyes in the front seats if your own lookout with be compromised (eyes-in/eyes-down guidance systems, for example). Even at low-speeds, it can be startling how quickly you can end up in someone else's face if you're not giving the outside world the correct attention. Trust me; been there, done that.
If you're hiring an aircraft, I'd make sure it was on a Public CofA at a minimum (or whatever the new EASA equivalent of that is), to cover one's backside.
HTH - good luck.
Well, aircraft of any nationality can undertake aerial work in the UK provided they hold a valid permit from the Department of Transport to do so and as long as they operate in accordance with the relevant parts of the ANO.
(Vanpilot - how's that hook looking?)
(Vanpilot - how's that hook looking?)
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Small detail but if you work for a UK airline, you probably hold a Multipilot rating... Which is not the same if you want to fly a chieftain. No biggy but good to know for business planning purposes 
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Great advice everyone, thanks. Didn't know about the 'multi-crew' rating thing; the relevant bits on the ratings page of my license are 'ME Piston (Land)' and 'IR-SPA-ME', I did my test on a Beech Duchess so was assuming that I'd be OK to hire something similar and fly it by myself - is this assumption true?
I'm starting to wonder whether getting an AOC might be the way ahead but am daunted by the prospect - is it too much for an individual to achieve do you think? Also I guess it will cost a fortune. Will the CAA want to know which aeroplane I am going to fly (i.e. the reg no), and who maintains it etc, or can you get an AOC to operate without specifying which aircraft you will be using?
Guess I'll have to call them soon, but it's as well to know as many of the facts first, or else I imagine it will be easy to be dismissed by someone who is too busy to speak to an unprepared muppet
I'm starting to wonder whether getting an AOC might be the way ahead but am daunted by the prospect - is it too much for an individual to achieve do you think? Also I guess it will cost a fortune. Will the CAA want to know which aeroplane I am going to fly (i.e. the reg no), and who maintains it etc, or can you get an AOC to operate without specifying which aircraft you will be using?
Guess I'll have to call them soon, but it's as well to know as many of the facts first, or else I imagine it will be easy to be dismissed by someone who is too busy to speak to an unprepared muppet
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Anyhow ops should be day and VMC only as birds are not flying in IMC or at night (usually...)
So a single engine A/C or a light twin will be enough, so no big deal for any rating.
)So a single engine A/C or a light twin will be enough, so no big deal for any rating.
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SPA is for Single Pilot Aeroplane but because you said you were working for an airline, I understood by that, that all your renewals were on MPA (multi Pilots aeroplane) hence your SPA could have lapsed.
I am not a specialist mind you but thought this kind of "gotchas" are great at delaying people plans, more than difficult to get sorted.
I am not a specialist mind you but thought this kind of "gotchas" are great at delaying people plans, more than difficult to get sorted.
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Working on it
I am currently trying to clarify the status of persons involved in offshore aerial surveys and the status of the flight - aerial work or PT. Expressflight mentions Bob Commander at the CAA - he left in 2006 (and now runs Commander Aviation Services Ltd). The CAA contacts are now George Duncan - 01293 573526 or Geoff Parker 01293 573412, both in Flight Ops at Gatwick.
My own twopennorth: EU-Ops 1 (the EASA "rules" for commercial air transport) applicability states
OPS 1 does not apply:
..................................................
3. to flights immediately before, during, or immediately after an aerial work activity provided these flights are connected with that aerial work activity and in which, excluding crew members, no more than 6 persons indispensable to the aerial
work activity are carried.
If the UK CAA accepted this, in conjunction with the ICAO definitions of Commercial Air Transport and Aerial Work (a specialist service such as .....aerial survey....etc.) The problem would go away. However, at the moment UK CAA is sticking with the outmoded UK definitions of Public Transport and Flight Crew, which introduces the concept of a "passenger" on an aerial work flight and any payment for carriage upgrades such a flight to Public Transport, needing a UK AOC (remember an EU Ops 1 is not applicable!) There is no ICAO or EASA definition of PT. If it is not Commercial AIr Transport it is Aerial Work or a Private flight. Quite clear, but UK CAA continues to argue - almost for the sake of it - or to preserve the UK AOC status quo.
Dear, Dear.
My own twopennorth: EU-Ops 1 (the EASA "rules" for commercial air transport) applicability states
OPS 1 does not apply:
..................................................
3. to flights immediately before, during, or immediately after an aerial work activity provided these flights are connected with that aerial work activity and in which, excluding crew members, no more than 6 persons indispensable to the aerial
work activity are carried.
If the UK CAA accepted this, in conjunction with the ICAO definitions of Commercial Air Transport and Aerial Work (a specialist service such as .....aerial survey....etc.) The problem would go away. However, at the moment UK CAA is sticking with the outmoded UK definitions of Public Transport and Flight Crew, which introduces the concept of a "passenger" on an aerial work flight and any payment for carriage upgrades such a flight to Public Transport, needing a UK AOC (remember an EU Ops 1 is not applicable!) There is no ICAO or EASA definition of PT. If it is not Commercial AIr Transport it is Aerial Work or a Private flight. Quite clear, but UK CAA continues to argue - almost for the sake of it - or to preserve the UK AOC status quo.
Dear, Dear.
