Nice Tips to know for a ferry flight !!

[roljoe]

Hi,

totally unexperienced in ferry flight, I have been asked by my company to organize and perform a ferry flight for a midsize jet from USA to Europe, via Greenland,Iceland...

I would appreciate all kind of pertinent infos about that particular trip in order to prepare it and making it un uneventfull experience.

As european citizen, I suppose I have to obtain a specific vis ??

Thanks to all for your Tips.

Roljoe

[Tmbstory]

Ferry Flight

Roljoe:

What type of Aircraft and the range is important to know.

A long time ago we took a Cessna 550, from the mid west of USA to Bangor, Goose Bay, Sonderstrom, Reykjavik, to the UK.

Have a good trip! Plan carefully.

Tmb

[Empty Cruise]

roljoe,

Make sure you get your and your FO's C1/D visas sorted first of all. Can take time, so better move sooner rather than later.

Secondly, make sure you both have valid MNPS and RVSM-courses - otherwise this is gonna be a tad hard and make sure you're both up to speed on MNPS procedures.

Then look at how you're gonna handle the hand-over, i.e test-flight with OEMs pilot, cabin layout, furnishings, paperwork, legalese 101 if you're the poor sod that has to sign for summat, liaison with the owner / operator to make sure you don't take delivery of something they're not gonna be 100% happy with. Get a written definition of your mandate, in that way they can't come after you if you've stayed within your limits

Obviously, making sure it's being delivered on a register that you're allowed to fly - or you'll have a slightly longer stay than planned...

Planning-wise, if you don't have an ops-department behind you, might I suggest using a commercial ops provider or at least flightplanning provider, at least this one time? Will save many hours of tedious work, and possibly embarrasment to boot. Make sure you have your en-route alternates well though out and checked before departure, and make sure you know where to get en-route WX updates while transiting the pond. If it's a mid-sized job, you should be good from YYZ to SNN, maybe even BGR-SNN? However, make sure whoever does the planning gets the performance of the aircraft right and don't file unrealistsic levels. Planning on anything less than ISA+10 is for the optimists only, so beware.

The flight - well, as any hop W-E, it's over before you know it. There's plenty to keep you busy unless you've got CPDLC, and wether is turning for the better if you're going soon-ish.

All the best,

Empty

[roljoe]

A big thanks to this already..

About the AC this is a brand new LR45XR, all perfos should be in the ops planning software soon or later.

About MNPS ans RVSM, no probs for me, for the FO, this gone be fixed in the comming weeks.

The Hand-over will probably be my heaviest concern ..and thanks to advise me about asking for a precise mandate.

What is legalese 101 ?? and for visa the C1/D is enough ??

Onesmore, a big thanks to all.

Roljoe

[merlinxx]

Lr45xr

Jepp have the 45XR loaded in Jetplan

[dc9-32]

roljoe

You have a PM

[Empty Cruise]

roljoe,

Well, since you're gonna be spending considerable time at a US embassy anyway , might as well get both B1/B2 + C1/D visas at the same time, in that way you're covered as a tourist as well, useful for e.g. training etc.

Legalese 101 = watch your back, lawyers can smell blood from surprising distances. Just meant to say "watch what you're signing" - if you're a member of a pilots union, I'd recommend maybe having their boys look it over for you, unless you're signing on behalf or someone, in taht case it'll be between that person and you... again, back to the written mandate.

Should be good fun - enjoy the show!

All the best,
Empty

[Martin Barnes]

FYI

Im getting the impression you are collecting an airplane from the USA.

If this is so be advised you do not require a `visa to leave the country you will enter on a VW airline I quess. KROC is a good place to leave no hassles nice fbo.

file your plans in the usa on line with fltpln.com which will give you the route

download the Canpass form on line and phone the canadians before you leave with your landing time at goose. Woodwards is the best FBO.

if your routing is goose to kef the standard route in on the chart already. no HF needed.

check out the BGBW website which also publish the route and will be your alternate if you need it in an emergency (watch the crazy opening times at bgbw).

If you have any RVSM issues climb to FL430 or above and you wont need it.

Plan 2 extra days for snag fixes and paperwork delays and you wont get stressed.

have a good trip

[capt.sparrow]

You'll also need a US waiver for the aircraft and crew to operate/transit US airpsace. This can be done online but can take a couple of weeks if the computer says no. See https://waiver.c3.faa.gov/.

[CirrusF]

Check the insurance carefully. Some companies are not above lying to the insurance broker about the qualifications and experience of the captain (you) so that they can get the insurance cheaper. When you have a copy of the insurance, also make a call to the broker to ensure that the details given to them about you are correct.

[roljoe]

Thanks again to all fellow collegues for all this..

anyway, I will get a C1/D visa..just in case I have to get back to US in case of major problem with the AC..(back to the manufacturer)..my VW with airline won't be valid anyway..(crew status)
Considering the insurance..a deep investigation will be done before and I will read all the "small" caracters...even if flying about 10 years on LR45...

but again..my main concern is about the "hand over" because I don't think I' ll get a technican staff with me to overview all parerworks and the exact product delivered according to the order ...But I'm working on it...

According to several gathered infos..it's look prefferable to avoid Canadian airport..so I will focus on Bangor (Maine)..just a single fact...all meals boarded in USA (for the atlantic trip) have to be destroyed before leaving Canadian airport..even staying on board ??? ridiculous..and new one ordered (only for the crew...??)

Thank's again for all your apppreciated imputs..
Roljoe

[Boomerang1]

Ferry Trip

You will not need MNPS if you fly the route from Goose Bay to Kef. You can even do this route with no HF radio or long range nav equipment.

[hawker750]

Boomerang
You are wrong about not needing MNPS approval for the route Goose/KEF. You definitely do need it because it is still MNPS airspace (290-410). The only difference with this route is that you only need one Long Range Nav. You also need RVSM approval. These approvals are from the State of registry.
As far as HF is concerned I think you will find that it is a requirement except for a few very specific routes between Iceland and the UK. I believe that you can get an HF waiver for a flight if you have a sat phone on board and lodge the number with Shanwick. Would be grateful for info from others on this point.

[roljoe]

Hi, your remarks are fully correct, hawker750, I was about to mention it for others..interrested..

About HF, some agreement may be considered with NAT controls, if a "satcom" is available on board..but in case by case context..

Anyway the LR45xr is 2 LRNS and HF equipped and like anybody knows mnps and rvsm approved..

Thanks for all

Roljoe

[CJ Driver]

RVSM - Are you sure?

Speaking as someone who has done quite a few Atlantic ferry flights, I am not convinced by the comments about RVSM and MNPS approvals. As I am sure you all know, it is NOT the aircraft that has the approval, but the operator. And, to get that approval, you need to write the appropriate Ops manuals to correspond to that operator and airframe, submit them to the state of registry, pay the applicable local fees, and wait N weeks to get the approval.

In my experience, the formal operator for a transatlantic ferry flight is often called something like "New Aircraft Acquisition Entity Number 437" . You're contracted to them as the operating crew, you've got your export C of A, your temporary radio station licence, your Kansas sales tax export waiver, all kinds of similar bits of paper, but unless the buyer was willing to wait 6 weeks after paying for the aircraft for you to get an RVSM manual approved, your stack of paper probably doesn't include an RVSM/MNPS LOA.

Which is why even well equipped jets ferry across the Atlantic at FL280 or below, and end up stopping more often than you would expect to buy the extra fuel they need!

[His dudeness]

Hmm, I operate a coorperate airplane and picked it up in AUG 2007 from Cessnas at KICT. I had the MNPS and RVSM approval before the airplane flew for the first time and I did not have a manual - just the papers (equipment list etc) from Cessna. The only thing our authority wanted besides that was a RVSM course written test result for both pilots. Maybe there is a difference between operating commercially or private? Or is the difference between CAA and LBA? ( I ferried the airplane under D-Reg and Permit to fly, KICT-CYYR-EDLP, above 410)

[roljoe]

Well CJ driver, I agree with your statements as long as this belongs to your scenario..but let's assume we decide to follow another one..

And ours is quite a proactive one..I mean that all paperwork between the OEM and the Operator progress day by day...the final payment will be done as soon as all the file will be in the hands of the local authority (state of registry) and all approvals about to be get, and I would add...the hand over completed at our completed satisfaction..

Furthermore, if any of this should still be a concern..we have plenty of time and place to climb above the rvsm airspace and consider this approval later while in Europe..but plenty of weeks remain ahead and I feel confident about the final result.

Anyway, thanks for your imput, all should be considered carrefully and I thanks again all people here having participated to this thread.

[clivewatson]

Well how funny it is that so many claim to know the regs, and all have differing opinions. I did the trip a few days ago Westbound without HF, and declared it on my flight plan. Also, checked with ATC to see if we should make any route ammendments due to not having HF - "no problem" was the reply.

95% of the "spruce routes" as they were called, are covered by VHF. The only exception is a small Western portion before you get within / leave VHF range of Gander. This is known to them, and in fact they mentioned it to me by saying..." if you don't reach us on VHF, skip the report."

My C1/D visa had also just expired, but again no problem at Bangor when we imported the aiirplane. In fact the guy asked me "which visa do you want to come in on, the expired one or the curent B1/B2?" Maybe he was just a good guy, or maybe the advise I got in writing from the US embassy was good enough - who knows?

RVSM is NOT a requirement provided you do not fly in RVSM airspace. In the Lear of couse you will not have any such problem. I may be a bit out of date here, but does not "transitional airspace" still exist? Of course you know what this is for!

As much as many would like to make this sound a complex operation, the fact is that it IS NOT. My only advise, if it is worth the additional typing, is that you study carefully in advance the options open to you at anytime in the flight if you lose an engine, pressurisation or a passenger needs to hit terra firma in a hurry - ETP,s PNR's, and all that stuff you may have forgotten from school days.

Keep 121.5 up on box 2 just in case, Eastbound in a Lear should be no problem, quick and fun - enjoy it.

Only another opinion pprune.