P-2 Neptune firefighter crash - Utah
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Apparently nothing. I've nothing but distain and disgust for speculation.
I knew those involved well. I lived in that area, and fought fire there for several years. I flew with the individuals in the crash, and have known them for many years.
Save the speculation; it's unprofessional, unnecessary, and unwarranted.
The fire season hasn't started yet in earnest. We can only hope there won't be more.
I knew those involved well. I lived in that area, and fought fire there for several years. I flew with the individuals in the crash, and have known them for many years.
Save the speculation; it's unprofessional, unnecessary, and unwarranted.
The fire season hasn't started yet in earnest. We can only hope there won't be more.
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All known information, nothing new. No reason presently to suggest was weathe related, however. We don't know why they went down there, why they altered their altitude. Their flight was tracked by the USFS Automated Flight Following system with very precise hits every two minutes showing their course and altitude...and they didn't make the entire flight at that altitude.
Any number of possibilities exist as to why they might have been there, but while weather was in the area, both were rated instrument pilots, both experienced. A medical problem, mechanical problem, or any number of other reasons might have caused them to be there.
Point is, it's too early to tell.
Any number of possibilities exist as to why they might have been there, but while weather was in the area, both were rated instrument pilots, both experienced. A medical problem, mechanical problem, or any number of other reasons might have caused them to be there.
Point is, it's too early to tell.
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CFIT
Painful to read, but I think that report says it all. I've flown that area many times and am very familiar with the terrain there, and I could picture every move they made and what it probably looked like out the window. A chilling reminder of what happens when you keep pushing VFR in IFR conditions. Reminds me of my days flying tours in the Grand Canyon during the winter months. I'm sure that not having anti-ice or de-ice capability was a very big factor in what happened.
My condolences to the family and friends of the crew.
My condolences to the family and friends of the crew.
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I didn't see anything there that's painful to read. I knew the crew very well. I flew in that location extensively, including operating a fire contract there for several years. I put out fires on the same ridge where they crashed. I flew for two years with the captain, in other types of large air tankers. Additionally, I lived a few miles north of the crash site. I've flown that mission, and was carded for several years in the P2V.
Air tanker operations aren't like airline operations. Flights are typically conducted under VFR, and the nature of general flight operations precludes filing or flying under a flight plan. Crews are accustomed to launching on very short notice into low level flights in very mountainous terrain with no immediate briefing, no flight plan, in a very fluid, tactical situation.
In this case, the crew obtained more than one briefing, and were "flight following," receiving FAA radar advisories. Altitude precluded receiving advisories at the time of impact and for about ten minutes prior to that, which is very common during normal operations due to typical operational altitudes.
Directly west of the location where the impact occurred, one of the two largest chemical weapons stockpiles in the world exists; it's a large army weapons depot, with fly-over restrictions. The captain referred to this location when they adjusted their position east, to avoid the "square." Unfortunately, this push east moved them to lowering weather as they approached the backside of the Oquirrh Mountains (where orographic lifting creates lowering ceilings, and rising terrain puts aircraft closer to them).
One also needs to understand the perspective that routine fire operations mean normally operating in low visibility.
Air tanker operations aren't like airline operations. Flights are typically conducted under VFR, and the nature of general flight operations precludes filing or flying under a flight plan. Crews are accustomed to launching on very short notice into low level flights in very mountainous terrain with no immediate briefing, no flight plan, in a very fluid, tactical situation.
In this case, the crew obtained more than one briefing, and were "flight following," receiving FAA radar advisories. Altitude precluded receiving advisories at the time of impact and for about ten minutes prior to that, which is very common during normal operations due to typical operational altitudes.
Directly west of the location where the impact occurred, one of the two largest chemical weapons stockpiles in the world exists; it's a large army weapons depot, with fly-over restrictions. The captain referred to this location when they adjusted their position east, to avoid the "square." Unfortunately, this push east moved them to lowering weather as they approached the backside of the Oquirrh Mountains (where orographic lifting creates lowering ceilings, and rising terrain puts aircraft closer to them).
One also needs to understand the perspective that routine fire operations mean normally operating in low visibility.
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Still painful, because I've flown there and in those conditions.
I grew up and learned to fly in the Southwestern US (Las Vegas and Salt Lake City), and I have several thousand hours of low level VFR and IFR flying under my belt in the Utah, Arizona, Nevada area, for many of the local operators throughout the 80's. I wasn't kidding when I said I'm very familiar with the terrain there, AND the weather and what it's like to fly in those conditions. That IS what makes the report painful to read, because I have lost several friends in those conditions and could literally "see" what was happening.
I don't care how experienced you are, continued VFR in those conditions will result in a very bad day more often than not, especially with high terrain in the area, and if there is snow on the ground, its even worse, because of the reduced visual cues. No matter how familiar you are with an area, it's still very risky. Always better to say "enough" and climb away and pick up an IFR clearance (not a great option for them without any anti-ice or de-ice capability) or turn around while you can.
I actually lost a job because I wouldn't press it under similar conditions one day, and I've never regretted that decision. I'd rather be alive and looking for a job than scattered across the side of a hill.
The loss of your friends is a hard thing, and I feel for you. One of my friends made a smoking hole in the side of a mesa on the Utah, Arizona border in the same conditions, on his way to the Grand Canyon many years ago. Because of him, I re-evaluated my thoughts on that kind of flying, and one day, I think it saved me and a group of other less experienced pilots when, as part of a group of 6 twin Cessnas on an air tour of the north side of the Grand Canyon, with snow showers increasing and visibility and ceiling dropping rapidly with us down inside the canyon, I told everyone to follow my lead and start climbing (on diverging headings for separation) and calling center for a squawk and a clearance, even though technically we were on a VFR-only passenger carrying tour flight and our aircraft were not "legal" to fly IFR. We all climbed out on top and flew back to home base without an incident, where we all had to shoot an approach to get in. We even had to get the ILS numbers from approach because none of us had charts onboard. The Feds knew all about it and didn't say a thing or bother anyone about it. I'm sure they were happy that we came home safely.
We were able to meet for a beer afterwards and talk about how bad the visibility was getting and how fast the clouds and snow were closing in on us, and everyone was happy that I quickly chose to do something that they all considered but were not sure they could "legally" do, before we got pushed any lower. Everybody was pretty sobered by the experience, and we all agreed that any one of us had a darn good chance of smacking a canyon wall had we tried to fly out underneath the weather.
That is just one of many times that I have been faced with such a decision, and now as then, I will always opt for "safe" over "legal".
I don't care how experienced you are, continued VFR in those conditions will result in a very bad day more often than not, especially with high terrain in the area, and if there is snow on the ground, its even worse, because of the reduced visual cues. No matter how familiar you are with an area, it's still very risky. Always better to say "enough" and climb away and pick up an IFR clearance (not a great option for them without any anti-ice or de-ice capability) or turn around while you can.
I actually lost a job because I wouldn't press it under similar conditions one day, and I've never regretted that decision. I'd rather be alive and looking for a job than scattered across the side of a hill.
The loss of your friends is a hard thing, and I feel for you. One of my friends made a smoking hole in the side of a mesa on the Utah, Arizona border in the same conditions, on his way to the Grand Canyon many years ago. Because of him, I re-evaluated my thoughts on that kind of flying, and one day, I think it saved me and a group of other less experienced pilots when, as part of a group of 6 twin Cessnas on an air tour of the north side of the Grand Canyon, with snow showers increasing and visibility and ceiling dropping rapidly with us down inside the canyon, I told everyone to follow my lead and start climbing (on diverging headings for separation) and calling center for a squawk and a clearance, even though technically we were on a VFR-only passenger carrying tour flight and our aircraft were not "legal" to fly IFR. We all climbed out on top and flew back to home base without an incident, where we all had to shoot an approach to get in. We even had to get the ILS numbers from approach because none of us had charts onboard. The Feds knew all about it and didn't say a thing or bother anyone about it. I'm sure they were happy that we came home safely.
We were able to meet for a beer afterwards and talk about how bad the visibility was getting and how fast the clouds and snow were closing in on us, and everyone was happy that I quickly chose to do something that they all considered but were not sure they could "legally" do, before we got pushed any lower. Everybody was pretty sobered by the experience, and we all agreed that any one of us had a darn good chance of smacking a canyon wall had we tried to fly out underneath the weather.
That is just one of many times that I have been faced with such a decision, and now as then, I will always opt for "safe" over "legal".
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We all die sometime.
Gus's Plateau, by chance?
One of my friends made a smoking hole in the side of a mesa on the Utah, Arizona border in the same conditions, on his way to the Grand Canyon many years ago.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 30th Apr 2010 at 08:01.
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SNS3Guppy,
When I read the thread of PC-12 crash up in Montana in this site, I was so outraged by the comments made by some who had no clue about the pilot in the accident. So I understand how you feel, sir.
Many of us are self-claimed air crash investigaters here. They don't care how people involved in tragedy would feel. Having said that, Keithskye is not one of them, I believe.
I used to fly over the ditch many years ago for the company called King Airelines out of Henderson. Compaired to what I do now, flying C-402 and 206 over the ditch (especially in beautiful winter morning) was truly the real flying.
We all die someday. And I am sorry that your friend had to go so prematurely.
AR
When I read the thread of PC-12 crash up in Montana in this site, I was so outraged by the comments made by some who had no clue about the pilot in the accident. So I understand how you feel, sir.
Many of us are self-claimed air crash investigaters here. They don't care how people involved in tragedy would feel. Having said that, Keithskye is not one of them, I believe.
I used to fly over the ditch many years ago for the company called King Airelines out of Henderson. Compaired to what I do now, flying C-402 and 206 over the ditch (especially in beautiful winter morning) was truly the real flying.
We all die someday. And I am sorry that your friend had to go so prematurely.
AR
