Non Payment to Contract Crews
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Non Payment to Contract Crews
There have been several threads citing non payment of contract personnel, and I have had various emails and PMs from cabin and cockpit crews which seem to indicate that this problem is becoming more widespread.
I'm not talking about late or contested payments, but rather total intent NOT to pay after the contract has finished. Obviously no-one condones this dishonesty, but without alarming the lawyers, how are we going to be able to warn fellow crews about companies/operators who persistently fail to pay up?
This post is not intended to open a directory of sinners, but to discuss HOW to deal with the problem. For example,if one knew that a particular company had a history of failing to pay, then it would be easy to avoid the same non-payment by demanding the fee be paid in advance.
I'm not talking about late or contested payments, but rather total intent NOT to pay after the contract has finished. Obviously no-one condones this dishonesty, but without alarming the lawyers, how are we going to be able to warn fellow crews about companies/operators who persistently fail to pay up?
This post is not intended to open a directory of sinners, but to discuss HOW to deal with the problem. For example,if one knew that a particular company had a history of failing to pay, then it would be easy to avoid the same non-payment by demanding the fee be paid in advance.
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For example,if one knew that a particular company had a history of failing to pay, then it would be easy to avoid the same non-payment by demanding the fee be paid in advance.
Guess who wasn´t invited to the party anymore?
My experience: there is ALWAYS an idiot (or ill informed) guy around to do your job.
And the whole issue is about as old as aviation. And always in the downturn it develops, and fades with a strong business environment.
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Your Dudeness, totally agree, but was trying to stimulate some ideas as to how to make the suckers (incl me!) avoid the same trap. Sh1t happens but the same offenders shouldn't be able to get away with the scam again and again. We could try the name and shame on PPRuNe, but its dodgy.....and non pruners wouldn't hear the warning.....I guess that's why they should sign up!
I got "done" once, tried the legal avenue and just compounded my losses!
Chimbu, that DOES work, only problem being that you need to know you are not going to be paid before "borrowing" the Tech log, C of A, Insurance cert. Iridium handset etc. Has been used to great effect to my certain knowledge on several occasions!
I got "done" once, tried the legal avenue and just compounded my losses!
Chimbu, that DOES work, only problem being that you need to know you are not going to be paid before "borrowing" the Tech log, C of A, Insurance cert. Iridium handset etc. Has been used to great effect to my certain knowledge on several occasions!
Last edited by Paradise Lost; 4th Mar 2009 at 21:51. Reason: just read chimbu's post
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If that doesn't work, then threaten, to write up a whole load of defects, including ones that would require a test flight (hopefully by a production test pilot), to be carried out before sign off. Threaten, to give a copy of the tech log, to the tower, local CAA DCA etc. That can get their attention very quickly.
The documents can be replaced reasonably quickly at no real cost to the operator, especially in these times.
Non payment of employees is a filthy trick and the perpetrators deserve everything they get.
The documents can be replaced reasonably quickly at no real cost to the operator, especially in these times.
Non payment of employees is a filthy trick and the perpetrators deserve everything they get.
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Non payment of employees is a filthy trick and the perpetrators deserve everything they get.
I one particular case, it was a leasing company that did not want to pay.
So...
I filed a Federal restraining order, so the airplane could not be moved.
Filed a mechanics lien so the airplane could not be sold with a clear title.
Had my attorney send a registered letter to the owner stating that the aircraft would be sold at public auction if we were not paid in ninety days.
The company paid up, pronto.
Fight fire with fire.
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Sometimes you just need to go in hard!
I think this pintching the tech log is a great idea, that would soon get the attention of the swine who thinks he can continue not to pay people for their proffesional services rendered...
I think this pintching the tech log is a great idea, that would soon get the attention of the swine who thinks he can continue not to pay people for their proffesional services rendered...
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So, let me get this straight - do you steal the tech log after the flight in case you don't get paid, or break into the aircraft and steal it after you haven't been paid.
That's a great idea, you probably wouldn't even get a custodial sentence if it was your first offence. But even if you did get a criminal record and a little time in prison, at least you'd have a moral victory right?
If you are a freelance pilot, you in effect run your own business, credit control is part of running a business, I don't think theft and burglary are in the "how to run a business" manuals I have read.
Why not do it proffessionally - draw up a booking form for the operator to sign when the book your services - this can include payment terms and cancellation fees. Include in there your expectations for payment of your day rate and your expenses.
If you are owed money it is a contractual matter - so why take a booking without a contract, then you have the law on your side.
Phil
That's a great idea, you probably wouldn't even get a custodial sentence if it was your first offence. But even if you did get a criminal record and a little time in prison, at least you'd have a moral victory right?
If you are a freelance pilot, you in effect run your own business, credit control is part of running a business, I don't think theft and burglary are in the "how to run a business" manuals I have read.
Why not do it proffessionally - draw up a booking form for the operator to sign when the book your services - this can include payment terms and cancellation fees. Include in there your expectations for payment of your day rate and your expenses.
If you are owed money it is a contractual matter - so why take a booking without a contract, then you have the law on your side.
Phil
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Phil
Yes in principle you are correct but the law is an ass. Contracts that are foreign and unenforcable. Even if legal action is commenced it is just laughed at and nothing happens. I know, I have been there!
Having had more than my fair share of working for so many crooks in this business and being stitched up so many times I can state catagorically that legal action simply doesn't work.
So if lifting some docs from the aircraft puts the tighteners on these monkeys then so be it! I'm all for it.
Yes in principle you are correct but the law is an ass. Contracts that are foreign and unenforcable. Even if legal action is commenced it is just laughed at and nothing happens. I know, I have been there!
Having had more than my fair share of working for so many crooks in this business and being stitched up so many times I can state catagorically that legal action simply doesn't work.
So if lifting some docs from the aircraft puts the tighteners on these monkeys then so be it! I'm all for it.
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Ding to that.
Cash in advance at the breakfast buffet prior to a days work is the only thing that works. Get THEM to front the costs for airline tickets and hotels. Some operators are nasty and promise you all sorts, dragging you along abusing your good nature.
I, as a matter of principle, dont want to have any costs outstanding less the daily rate, and request a CC or the expenses to be paid in advance. Luckily on multicrew contract work, I usually get all my stuff put on the other pilots CC (as they usually are full time in the operation).
The owners/operators dont really give a rats , as they know you have alot more to lose or cant afford to go to court to settle.
Cash in advance at the breakfast buffet prior to a days work is the only thing that works. Get THEM to front the costs for airline tickets and hotels. Some operators are nasty and promise you all sorts, dragging you along abusing your good nature.
I, as a matter of principle, dont want to have any costs outstanding less the daily rate, and request a CC or the expenses to be paid in advance. Luckily on multicrew contract work, I usually get all my stuff put on the other pilots CC (as they usually are full time in the operation).
The owners/operators dont really give a rats , as they know you have alot more to lose or cant afford to go to court to settle.
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Slight thread drift but...............
I once saw an aircraft operated by a large fractional company wearing a heavy chain and padlock around its nosegear. Allegedly someone felt they had reason to deny said company use of their aircraft for a few hours. Security video footage showed only a hooded figure padding across the apron and fitting the 'jewellery'.
I once saw an aircraft operated by a large fractional company wearing a heavy chain and padlock around its nosegear. Allegedly someone felt they had reason to deny said company use of their aircraft for a few hours. Security video footage showed only a hooded figure padding across the apron and fitting the 'jewellery'.
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Go Kelly Hopper...
These so called "Big" bosses get away with murder and running companies into the ground! My last company did just that, we all lost lots of money and the freelancers, just had to bite the bun and lose out too...
What can you say...
These so called "Big" bosses get away with murder and running companies into the ground! My last company did just that, we all lost lots of money and the freelancers, just had to bite the bun and lose out too...
What can you say...
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I watched a pilot take a flight manual when he was not paid. The owner paid in full for return of his flight manual - and the outstanding fees for the entire crew.. Prosecution takes far longer than the need to have a flight manual returned, and is a far simpler solution than involving lawyers.
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Instead of listing the bad guys and opening ourselves up to litigation etc - why not list the good guys instead?
Never work for someone that still owes you for the last time and if they were tardy in paying you - tell the chief pilot that you wont stand for it again - embarrass him/her.
As George Bush once misquoted "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" or "once bitten, twice shy" etc etc etc
Never work for someone that still owes you for the last time and if they were tardy in paying you - tell the chief pilot that you wont stand for it again - embarrass him/her.
As George Bush once misquoted "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" or "once bitten, twice shy" etc etc etc
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Dudley
How can you lay yourself open to litigation if what you say is true?
These fraudsters should be named and shamed and exposed for the theives they are. Perhaps then can we have the confidence that we are not lining ourselves up for another "hit" from the many criminals that inhabit this business!
Yes, name the good ones too. I want to know who they are so I can make a list of them. Starting with number one!
How can you lay yourself open to litigation if what you say is true?
These fraudsters should be named and shamed and exposed for the theives they are. Perhaps then can we have the confidence that we are not lining ourselves up for another "hit" from the many criminals that inhabit this business!
Yes, name the good ones too. I want to know who they are so I can make a list of them. Starting with number one!
