Commercial versus private ops
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Commercial versus private ops
Seems a good place to debate on commercial versus private rules.
But first, can someone explain me when we use an aircraft registration as call sign and when we use an ICAO registered call sign?
My understanding is in the first example, the aircraft registration is used for private ops while in the second example, it's used for commercial ops.
When an operator holds an AOC, aren't they obliged to use their ICAO registered call signs if their airplanes are listed on the AOC?
I've always been told that if an AOC operator wants to use one of their aircrafts for private ops, the airplane concerned must be removed from their AOC. Am I right or wrong?
Thks.
But first, can someone explain me when we use an aircraft registration as call sign and when we use an ICAO registered call sign?
My understanding is in the first example, the aircraft registration is used for private ops while in the second example, it's used for commercial ops.
When an operator holds an AOC, aren't they obliged to use their ICAO registered call signs if their airplanes are listed on the AOC?
I've always been told that if an AOC operator wants to use one of their aircrafts for private ops, the airplane concerned must be removed from their AOC. Am I right or wrong?
Thks.
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But first, can someone explain me when we use an aircraft registration as call sign and when we use an ICAO registered call sign?
You can use either, depends what is put on the flight plan.
My understanding is in the first example, the aircraft registration is used for private ops while in the second example, it's used for commercial ops.
No, see above
When an operator holds an AOC, aren't they obliged to use their ICAO registered call signs if their airplanes are listed on the AOC?
No, see above
I've always been told that if an AOC operator wants to use one of their aircrafts for private ops, the airplane concerned must be removed from their AOC. Am I right or wrong?
Wrong. It can be used for both, but certain limitations, such as crew FTL's must be adhered to.
You can use either, depends what is put on the flight plan.
My understanding is in the first example, the aircraft registration is used for private ops while in the second example, it's used for commercial ops.
No, see above
When an operator holds an AOC, aren't they obliged to use their ICAO registered call signs if their airplanes are listed on the AOC?
No, see above
I've always been told that if an AOC operator wants to use one of their aircrafts for private ops, the airplane concerned must be removed from their AOC. Am I right or wrong?
Wrong. It can be used for both, but certain limitations, such as crew FTL's must be adhered to.
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Ok. Went into ICAO ATM DOC 4444 and give the reference of the Annex 10 vol II, Chapter 5 for the provision for the use of radiotelephony call signs.
Will check this out. If there are any other related documents related to that subject, I am interested.
Thks for the help.
Will check this out. If there are any other related documents related to that subject, I am interested.
Thks for the help.
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If I do a commercial flight on day 1, then my company tells me the owner want to fly to Los Angeles (from Copenhagen) on day 2, they file it private so they do not have to comply with the FDL (they want to fly non stop, and we do not have a crew rest, can not carry 3rd crew) This will make it a very long day.
On day 3 our company has now sold a commercial flight.
If the crew get at least as long rest as their previous "private time on" the company says it is ok to go commercial again?
Can you swap between private and commercial like this?
On day 3 our company has now sold a commercial flight.
If the crew get at least as long rest as their previous "private time on" the company says it is ok to go commercial again?
Can you swap between private and commercial like this?
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In theory you can`t. IMO. But its seems to be handled different from national authority to authority. Even within an Authority there seems to be different opinions. I operated a KingAir a CJ2 (both on AOC) and wanted to fly to a place where the rwy would not have been long enough. So I asked my principal if I could this flight (for the owner) as a private one. Answer: yes, but you have to take the airplane off the AOC and you´d need to have a maintenance check (as if you would put the airplane on the AOC the first time) every time you´d do that. In the same hangar was a Citation V on an n AOC that did non AOC flights evry other week. We were both governed by the LBA, the german authority. By german law as a pilot you fall under flight/duty time limitations as long as you get paid for flying. So under AOC it would be subpart Q and under pvt ops in germany it would be the old 2.DVO LuftBO.
Better ask your local authority. And don´t try to find any logic.
Better ask your local authority. And don´t try to find any logic.
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I was recently flying for a rather large UK aoc company, but was told all flights with the owner (or his friends etc..) were all private. But of course this was a "verbal" agreement between the UK CAA and the operator, and as such nothing was in writing. We would have to swap and change at will between pvt/com at moments notice.
Not really a problem until we got ramp checked by the Austrians .. and trying to convince them of such..
We raised this issue with the relevant muppets in charge and of course got no answer from the company (head in sand I guess.. 
)
Not really a problem until we got ramp checked by the Austrians .. and trying to convince them of such..
We raised this issue with the relevant muppets in charge and of course got no answer from the company (head in sand I guess.. )
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Yeaph! That is my biggest problem. Swapping from private to commercial, commercial to private with those so called "verbal" agreements. One of our airplanes got blocked in France by local authority with exactly that. You're out there on the field when things happened. You call the office and all of a sudden, nobody is answering or the answer you get is non sense.
Sounds to me that some smart guys have found a loophole in the system (that's why I am trying to find legal related information). After all, we are the ones out there with our licenses on the line...
But to give credit, it's true if your FPL has IN (IFR Non-scheduled air transport operation flight) in item 8 of your FPL, with the aircraft registration, what is wrong with that? Item 7 of the FPL can have either one, the aircraft registration or the ICAO call sign as G-DAVE was saying.
Went on the Eurocontrol CFMU website but did not find anything...
I looked into the EU-OPS 1 and the only thing I found is EU-OPS 1.175 (L) and it says:"The Operator MUST ensure that EVERY flight is conducted in accordance with the provisions of the Operations Manual".
I looked into my manual and there is something about "General Aviation flight". Some conditions must be fulfilled for those flights... That was not an issue on this flight. All conditions were ok.
But why the French Authority were not convinced then?... Mmmm!
That's why I thought because of the call sign (see first post).
I guess the best thing to do is to contact and ask them directly.
I keep looking... Grrrr!
Sounds to me that some smart guys have found a loophole in the system (that's why I am trying to find legal related information). After all, we are the ones out there with our licenses on the line...
But to give credit, it's true if your FPL has IN (IFR Non-scheduled air transport operation flight) in item 8 of your FPL, with the aircraft registration, what is wrong with that? Item 7 of the FPL can have either one, the aircraft registration or the ICAO call sign as G-DAVE was saying.
Went on the Eurocontrol CFMU website but did not find anything...
I looked into the EU-OPS 1 and the only thing I found is EU-OPS 1.175 (L) and it says:"The Operator MUST ensure that EVERY flight is conducted in accordance with the provisions of the Operations Manual".
I looked into my manual and there is something about "General Aviation flight". Some conditions must be fulfilled for those flights... That was not an issue on this flight. All conditions were ok.
But why the French Authority were not convinced then?... Mmmm!
That's why I thought because of the call sign (see first post).
I guess the best thing to do is to contact and ask them directly.
I keep looking... Grrrr!
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My former emloyment was with a company where I flew C550 for private owners (management) and a little C206 on floats on the AOC. Our principal inspector told me that I, since I was employed by the company as a commercial pilot, had to obey by the FTL at all times, even when flying the C550.
So, by assuming that the inspectors understanding of the law in this matter was correct, it should mean that even though you remove an aircraft from the AOC and fly it privately you cannot stop following FTLs. At the same time though you should not have to use the 60% rule for landing distance for example. The only solution to the FTL problem would be to place the aircraft in another company.
So, by assuming that the inspectors understanding of the law in this matter was correct, it should mean that even though you remove an aircraft from the AOC and fly it privately you cannot stop following FTLs. At the same time though you should not have to use the 60% rule for landing distance for example. The only solution to the FTL problem would be to place the aircraft in another company.
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I think this is a case where the different CAAs seem to interpret the regulations differently. In Sweden, as long as it is private, there's no need to follow FTL. However you do need to hold at least a CPL if you are to be employed as a pilot (wether it be private or commercial), not taking in to account different certificates for differente aircraft etc. However, if you're employed mainly as a janitor you could well fly around with a PPL, and get paid to do it.
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Another way to look at this debate is via the licence held.
Anyone can have a C550 (for example) rating on a Private licence or CPL/ATP. However the PPL can only fly the aircraft for private use, but a CPL/ATP has the ability to fly it either privately or commercialy.
If you fly in the private category then the rules pertaining to private ops apply, which generally dont have FTL's. If it is operated with paying pax in the back then they get the protection of the higher class of rules.
Anyone can have a C550 (for example) rating on a Private licence or CPL/ATP. However the PPL can only fly the aircraft for private use, but a CPL/ATP has the ability to fly it either privately or commercialy.
If you fly in the private category then the rules pertaining to private ops apply, which generally dont have FTL's. If it is operated with paying pax in the back then they get the protection of the higher class of rules.
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Jetpipe; in EASA (ie Europe) you have to hold at least a CPL in order to fly a JAR/FAR25 certified aircraft AND you need to have at least 1500 hrs total time in order to act as commander/hold a PIC rating (and as usual you need to hold an ATPL if acting commander on a commercial flight). I know this is not the case with the FAA and obviously not in Australia either.
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If you fly in the private category then the rules pertaining to private ops apply, which generally dont have FTL's. If it is operated with paying pax in the back then they get the protection of the higher class of rules.
