Entry level Type Rating in Europe, where and how much?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Vito dei Normanni
Age: 52
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Entry level Type Rating in Europe, where and how much?
Dear all in Biz Jets, I'm looking to pursue a Biz Jet career in Europe, so with over 8500 hours experience and some time on B737's a long time ago what type would be a good starting point? I ask this in terms of hire-ability, training time and costs and then ease of operation. 
I'd love to hear your stories about taking this initial step and whether some operators out there have covered this expense in lieu of your previous experience?
I'm doing an overseas contract on small turbo-props at the moment and will be returning to EU in February 2008 with the view of doing a type course following an employment offer. If any other crew out there are in the early stages of doing something similar and could do with a partner for the Type course then let me know too.
Cheer's for now,
Walu
I'd love to hear your stories about taking this initial step and whether some operators out there have covered this expense in lieu of your previous experience?
I'm doing an overseas contract on small turbo-props at the moment and will be returning to EU in February 2008 with the view of doing a type course following an employment offer. If any other crew out there are in the early stages of doing something similar and could do with a partner for the Type course then let me know too.
Cheer's for now,
Walu
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Only upon request
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It all depends on which real experience you have.
How many PIC hours do you have, multi-crew, European experience, are you willing to be a Captain...
I never thought that an 8'500 hours pilot would have to pay for a new type, but you may have just a few hours on the 737.
Wait for at leat one to two months before spending money. We have still to find out who is going to survive the "financial" crisis (at all levels and not only banks).
How many PIC hours do you have, multi-crew, European experience, are you willing to be a Captain...
I never thought that an 8'500 hours pilot would have to pay for a new type, but you may have just a few hours on the 737.
Wait for at leat one to two months before spending money. We have still to find out who is going to survive the "financial" crisis (at all levels and not only banks).
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, if you are in the position of having to spend your hard earned cash on a type rating, don't spend it at a training outfit in Europe, even if your are JAA, take it from me.
My advice is for you to go to FSI, in the US. Start the TSA application early. A lot cheaper than Europe, better instructors, course duration is slightly longer and a lot less B/S involved! Even after paying for a decent hotel and hire car you will still save a lot.
If you have unlimited funds at your disposal and are not in favour of KISS, go to FSI in Europe.
You only get what you pay for I hear you scream! In this case, not so.
P.S. Try and work a deal with your future employer for them to front up the cash for the training and you pay back over a period, if you already haven't explored that possibility. If they have any integrity they will.
My advice is for you to go to FSI, in the US. Start the TSA application early. A lot cheaper than Europe, better instructors, course duration is slightly longer and a lot less B/S involved! Even after paying for a decent hotel and hire car you will still save a lot.
If you have unlimited funds at your disposal and are not in favour of KISS, go to FSI in Europe.
You only get what you pay for I hear you scream! In this case, not so.
P.S. Try and work a deal with your future employer for them to front up the cash for the training and you pay back over a period, if you already haven't explored that possibility. If they have any integrity they will.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Vito dei Normanni
Age: 52
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys for the sound advise and as ever it seems timing and little luck can play a big part in ones career moves in this industry.
Unfortunately I found this out several years ago when renewing my B737 300/500 with NG differences in Houston, Texas at Continental's Contract Flight Training Centre. Just happened to be there during September 11 didn't I!
So you could say I'm a little shy of heading off to the US with all my savings again that's all!
As an aside most of my 8500 is PIC, 5000 hours are PIC in multi-crew operations with 800 hours in Europe over the last two years in similar roles.
I hope the projected trend in Biz Aviation continues along it's path although it's very uncertain like you say.
Thanks again for the advise so far and I look forward to hearing more.
Walu
Unfortunately I found this out several years ago when renewing my B737 300/500 with NG differences in Houston, Texas at Continental's Contract Flight Training Centre. Just happened to be there during September 11 didn't I!
So you could say I'm a little shy of heading off to the US with all my savings again that's all!
As an aside most of my 8500 is PIC, 5000 hours are PIC in multi-crew operations with 800 hours in Europe over the last two years in similar roles.
I hope the projected trend in Biz Aviation continues along it's path although it's very uncertain like you say.
Thanks again for the advise so far and I look forward to hearing more.
Walu
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Generally see Citation type rating training as low as $5,000-6,000 in USA.
Takes 1 week they say, 10 days at worst.
For the 737, the cost of $6,000-7,000 is quoted, 2 weeks or a few days more.
Training for "BBJ" more expensive than "airline 737"... Ridiculous. Is same rating.
Housing and meal prices is another factor. One half of UK/Europe.
Flight safety is expensive. There are other places.
The paperwork for TSA and visas is just the only headache for some.
US$ exchange rate still favors other currencies... But do not delay, that might change.
xxx
Happy contrails
Takes 1 week they say, 10 days at worst.
For the 737, the cost of $6,000-7,000 is quoted, 2 weeks or a few days more.
Training for "BBJ" more expensive than "airline 737"... Ridiculous. Is same rating.
Housing and meal prices is another factor. One half of UK/Europe.
Flight safety is expensive. There are other places.
The paperwork for TSA and visas is just the only headache for some.
US$ exchange rate still favors other currencies... But do not delay, that might change.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm....
5000hrs multicrew and willing to pay for a rating?!?!?
How glad I am that I paid to renew my commercial drivers license.
I may not have so much time on Learjet, but I have A LOT of time on Mercedes.... may come in handy with the competition one faces.
5000hrs multicrew and willing to pay for a rating?!?!?
How glad I am that I paid to renew my commercial drivers license.
I may not have so much time on Learjet, but I have A LOT of time on Mercedes.... may come in handy with the competition one faces.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: way out west
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With your experience, why not get typed on something like the Challenger, Legacy or Falcon? Much more expensive, but
-still popular types at the mo' and for the foreseeable
-you would easily recoup the difference via the higher salary
-you'd sidestep the inevitably less experienced competition on smaller types
-nicer working evironment (APU, cabin height, attendant, varied destinations)
On the other hand, it makes for a bigger gamble. So if you do want to spend less, I'd go for the Citation Excel and variants (C560XL/XLS).
You should also think about how you wish to operate in GA: Public Transport or Private. Even with an AoC holder, I found that on smaller types I tended to operate an 80/20 percent public/private split, whilst now on a larger type, it's more 20/80, much more owner flights. Outside an AoC the private ops would, to my mind, be far more challenging in terms of duty, SOP and the like.
tW
-still popular types at the mo' and for the foreseeable
-you would easily recoup the difference via the higher salary
-you'd sidestep the inevitably less experienced competition on smaller types
-nicer working evironment (APU, cabin height, attendant, varied destinations)
On the other hand, it makes for a bigger gamble. So if you do want to spend less, I'd go for the Citation Excel and variants (C560XL/XLS).
You should also think about how you wish to operate in GA: Public Transport or Private. Even with an AoC holder, I found that on smaller types I tended to operate an 80/20 percent public/private split, whilst now on a larger type, it's more 20/80, much more owner flights. Outside an AoC the private ops would, to my mind, be far more challenging in terms of duty, SOP and the like.
tW
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the uncertainty in today's market, I am not sure I would pay for a type rating myself but say I was and I say I had your experience.
The last thing I would do, would be to spend money on a type rating like a Cessna 500 and similar.
Sure it is cheaper, sure it is quicker to organise but there is more to it...
Ask yourself who tends to fly the cheapest jets around ? People with loads of cash or people with less financial stability ?
Companies who have a decent OPS department, a roster, or start up/winding down/water testing operators ?
I am not saying that the bigger plane operators are all better but I would say that a C500 tends to be at the bottom of the pile in terms of operations, stability, salaries etc...
So unless you have some contacts you find reliable, and if you really want to get yourself a type rating at your own expense, then aim higher. Smaller than a Hawker 800/900 I wouldn't do it. A Falcon, a Challenger, that kind of stuff is more likely to meet your expectations in terms of work conditions and rewards.
Finally, if you are retiring but fancy the odd job once in a while, go and check out your local operators. See what they operate, talk to them and get a feel for it. In that case, it won't matter so much how well they pay, how much of a roster they have. You will be doing it just for the extra cash and the fun of it... A different situation.
Good luck
The last thing I would do, would be to spend money on a type rating like a Cessna 500 and similar.
Sure it is cheaper, sure it is quicker to organise but there is more to it...
Ask yourself who tends to fly the cheapest jets around ? People with loads of cash or people with less financial stability ?
Companies who have a decent OPS department, a roster, or start up/winding down/water testing operators ?
I am not saying that the bigger plane operators are all better but I would say that a C500 tends to be at the bottom of the pile in terms of operations, stability, salaries etc...
So unless you have some contacts you find reliable, and if you really want to get yourself a type rating at your own expense, then aim higher. Smaller than a Hawker 800/900 I wouldn't do it. A Falcon, a Challenger, that kind of stuff is more likely to meet your expectations in terms of work conditions and rewards.
Finally, if you are retiring but fancy the odd job once in a while, go and check out your local operators. See what they operate, talk to them and get a feel for it. In that case, it won't matter so much how well they pay, how much of a roster they have. You will be doing it just for the extra cash and the fun of it... A different situation.
Good luck
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
who sells falcon or challenger ratings in US apart flightsafety ?
I have candaian Licence with 700hrs of instruction, is it worth paying one of those PPC and then fire resumes all over the world ?
I have candaian Licence with 700hrs of instruction, is it worth paying one of those PPC and then fire resumes all over the world ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Vito dei Normanni
Age: 52
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gosh, I'm starting to see what the big picture means in this industry, thanks for this info.. Good friend in Dubai contacted me the other day suggesting the Hawker family, I think it was a 850XP. He said CAE does this for about $34'000 USD. This is a substantial amount for a individual to garner!
Having said that, the rewards, schedule and type of operator would be vastly different to that of a smaller type which is to be expected. I'm no way near retirement either turning 37 this month, so I'm looking to put the time in on the right seat again to make this work.
Given the volume of orders for VLJ's and the new series of Citations and others it seems there will be plenty of aircraft for new crew to cut their teeth on, is this a good thing for the industry and how does one train crew to fill these new positions?
Should one consider this as an entry level path as well? I'm not inexperienced at all and wouldn't want to spend time unnecessarily sucking egg's either but really if it keeps me happy and located within a days travel of the family then maybe this isn't a bad option either.
Thanks again all,
Walu
Having said that, the rewards, schedule and type of operator would be vastly different to that of a smaller type which is to be expected. I'm no way near retirement either turning 37 this month, so I'm looking to put the time in on the right seat again to make this work.
Given the volume of orders for VLJ's and the new series of Citations and others it seems there will be plenty of aircraft for new crew to cut their teeth on, is this a good thing for the industry and how does one train crew to fill these new positions?
Should one consider this as an entry level path as well? I'm not inexperienced at all and wouldn't want to spend time unnecessarily sucking egg's either but really if it keeps me happy and located within a days travel of the family then maybe this isn't a bad option either.
Thanks again all,
Walu
