VFR transits
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VFR transits
Hello all
Been lurking on here for a while but this is my first post.
Am I the only one who is uncomfortable about doing a VFR transit in a jet? Talking to some crew downroute in Moscow recently about this and both said they did them quite regularly. An example would be from say Cambridge to Southend or Oxford to Farnborough low level, so I'm not talking about a visual approach or even a VFR departure prior to joining controlled airspace.
For me the risk of collision is too high even at 200kts!
Been lurking on here for a while but this is my first post.
Am I the only one who is uncomfortable about doing a VFR transit in a jet? Talking to some crew downroute in Moscow recently about this and both said they did them quite regularly. An example would be from say Cambridge to Southend or Oxford to Farnborough low level, so I'm not talking about a visual approach or even a VFR departure prior to joining controlled airspace.
For me the risk of collision is too high even at 200kts!
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Why could it not be an IFR transit? Below CAS on the routes you mention you should be able to mitigate the risk with a radar service from ATC, but yes, definitely still keep your eyes scanning!
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We do it regularly and the policy is a radar service (RIS Minimum), Eyes outside, no paperwork and TCAS on of course. Works fine by me, as stated its the same as IFR outside controlled airspace!
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lets hope your employer feels the same way you do, and if they do in this economic climate lets sincerely hope your about next year to tell me the xtra flying was worthwhile 
I think its horses for courses, a lot of the London based operators are frequently positioning from biggin/luton/stansted/Northolt in bandit country. Its what you get used to I suppose, spoke to a mate of mine just today that dropped out of the LTMA and followed the M25 back to stapleford
20 mins extra =£1500 in my a/c
I think its horses for courses, a lot of the London based operators are frequently positioning from biggin/luton/stansted/Northolt in bandit country. Its what you get used to I suppose, spoke to a mate of mine just today that dropped out of the LTMA and followed the M25 back to stapleford
20 mins extra =£1500 in my a/c
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VFR is fine by me
Flying a jet VFR is no different to flying a piston single VFR; if you are current at flying your piston single VFR you will find the jet exactly the same, only a bit quicker. On the other hand, if you haven't flown any VFR since you got your PPL a few years ago, and every approach since was a vectored ILS, you will find that you feel horribly exposed flying VFR cross country.
Like everything in flying, it is all about currency, and although IFR flying is thought of as "harder" than VFR flying, if you are not current on VFR, you genuinely may not be able to do it.
Like everything in flying, it is all about currency, and although IFR flying is thought of as "harder" than VFR flying, if you are not current on VFR, you genuinely may not be able to do it.
Radar services available in class G in the south east of England mitigate the risks to a great extent, but total reliance on TCAS is a problem due to the number of aircraft operating quite legally without transponders or RTF contact. I'm always conscious that compliance with (for instance) a TCAS RA climb instruction might take you into conflict with a non-transponding aircraft above you (and hence not detected) , so I would try to get you to route clear of other radar contacts even under RIS.
As a former mil controller at Northolt, have first hand experience of the hazards of jets and twin TPs operating outside of CAS, especially under the London TMA. Decisions, decisions...mmmm...nice day, go VFR with a radar service from the appropriate unit - risky, but save time/fuel/money. Not so nice, go airways and be assured of standard separation.
Nasty area between the Heathrow zone and the Wycombe Air Park ATZ, especially when Heathrow are arriving on 09. Witnessed more than one instant of jets at 2400', under RIS, shooting the gap and receiving a TCAS RA against other, low-level traffic. Not much a controller can do except provide updates of conflicting traffic and, if looking like a risk of collision, offer some kind of action. TCAS instructs a climb....straight into traffic descending onto left base for 09 at LHR! Lots of paperwork and maybe a skipped heartbeat or two
Nasty area between the Heathrow zone and the Wycombe Air Park ATZ, especially when Heathrow are arriving on 09. Witnessed more than one instant of jets at 2400', under RIS, shooting the gap and receiving a TCAS RA against other, low-level traffic. Not much a controller can do except provide updates of conflicting traffic and, if looking like a risk of collision, offer some kind of action. TCAS instructs a climb....straight into traffic descending onto left base for 09 at LHR! Lots of paperwork and maybe a skipped heartbeat or two
Last edited by Stevie B; 23rd Oct 2008 at 07:57.
Er far be it from me to argue, but isn't it left base for Heathrow 09s in the vicinity of Wycombe?
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Was talking to one of my regular flying colleagues recently and he was of the opinion it was ok. We had a frank discussion about it and he agreed that if I wasn't happy, we as a crew wouldn't be doing it.
Doing 200 kts or even 180 is still too fast in bandit country. The visibility in most biz jets is not great and you can't exactly throw it around like a PA28! The mark 1 eyeball is very fallible as we all know. How many of you who instructed remember those biennial checkouts with PPLs who hardly ever did a proper lookout? Frightening! I would personally prefer not to mix my jet with these characters! TCAS is only good for transponding aircraft and as we all know there are loads of aircraft legally flying without (or switched off) in class G airspace. RIS is subject to controller workload and radar clutter etc etc which is very common around the London TMA. It is far from fallible.
On balance, the least I would accept is an IFR transit ideally with an RAS!
Doing 200 kts or even 180 is still too fast in bandit country. The visibility in most biz jets is not great and you can't exactly throw it around like a PA28! The mark 1 eyeball is very fallible as we all know. How many of you who instructed remember those biennial checkouts with PPLs who hardly ever did a proper lookout? Frightening!
I would personally prefer not to mix my jet with these characters! TCAS is only good for transponding aircraft and as we all know there are loads of aircraft legally flying without (or switched off) in class G airspace. RIS is subject to controller workload and radar clutter etc etc which is very common around the London TMA. It is far from fallible.On balance, the least I would accept is an IFR transit ideally with an RAS!
