Aerial Work
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Aerial Work
Help,
I need some clarification with regard to Aerial work. My situation is this:
I hold a JAA CPL/ Class one medical. My Employer has asked me to survey a pipeline. I intend to hire an aircraft from a local flying school (C172 C206) and fly the length of the pipeline with another employee recording the event by camera. We will both be paid by our company to do this.
Is this legal and classed as aerial work?
Must the aeroplane be maintained as a public transport aircraft?
Is this classed as a private flight?
Does the insurance company need to be notified and does this alter the prem by a lot?
Any other information i need to know?
I have asked the CAA who have refered me to the ANO which is a little confusing.
Regards
Phil
I need some clarification with regard to Aerial work. My situation is this:
I hold a JAA CPL/ Class one medical. My Employer has asked me to survey a pipeline. I intend to hire an aircraft from a local flying school (C172 C206) and fly the length of the pipeline with another employee recording the event by camera. We will both be paid by our company to do this.
Is this legal and classed as aerial work?
Must the aeroplane be maintained as a public transport aircraft?
Is this classed as a private flight?
Does the insurance company need to be notified and does this alter the prem by a lot?
Any other information i need to know?
I have asked the CAA who have refered me to the ANO which is a little confusing.
Regards
Phil
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I would think that as your company is paying you guys for this you are operating a commercial flight so where you hire the aircraft from would have to have the correct AoC along with Aerial work C of A for the aircraft.
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Aerial work
Hello,
I have spoken to the CAA today who have said that in there opinion it would be aeriel work but they will not put anything in writing, they say that it is for my company's lawer to understand the ANO and apply the rules as required..?
Ultimatley my company will hire in the service to avoid any possible prosecution which doesn't help my flying hrs/experience.
I have spoken to the CAA today who have said that in there opinion it would be aeriel work but they will not put anything in writing, they say that it is for my company's lawer to understand the ANO and apply the rules as required..?
Ultimatley my company will hire in the service to avoid any possible prosecution which doesn't help my flying hrs/experience.
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Ashbow,
This seems fairly unambiguous, and you should be able to conduct the task as described.
You and the other person on board are both employees of the company who has commissioned the work, and are doing the task as part of your duties for that company. There is no third party customer or operator, thus it is a private flight. No AOC is required.
You are being paid by your employer to perform duties which include flying an aircraft. Thus, you are being paid to fly, and can only do that if you have a valid CPL; you imply that you have one, so you are fine on that front.
Your company is renting the aircraft from someone else. The company will presumably want to rely on the insurance policy of the Flying School. This is the only area where you need to be careful, and you will want to assure yourself that the mission is allowed by their insurance, and that renters, and their employees, are automatically considered as additional assureds under the policy. This is not always completely clear cut in the policy, so you would be wise to check before you launch.
This seems fairly unambiguous, and you should be able to conduct the task as described.
You and the other person on board are both employees of the company who has commissioned the work, and are doing the task as part of your duties for that company. There is no third party customer or operator, thus it is a private flight. No AOC is required.
You are being paid by your employer to perform duties which include flying an aircraft. Thus, you are being paid to fly, and can only do that if you have a valid CPL; you imply that you have one, so you are fine on that front.
Your company is renting the aircraft from someone else. The company will presumably want to rely on the insurance policy of the Flying School. This is the only area where you need to be careful, and you will want to assure yourself that the mission is allowed by their insurance, and that renters, and their employees, are automatically considered as additional assureds under the policy. This is not always completely clear cut in the policy, so you would be wise to check before you launch.
If your company hire the aircraft and therefore supply it for you to fly, then I think you can undertake the work as CJ Driver suggests. What you probably cannot do is hire the aircraft yourself and then charge your company for carrying out the survey as that would then become Aerial Work.
The CAA GA division used to be more helpful in giving advice in such situations than now seems to be the case. Perhaps the fear of using against them any advice they may give, in the event of something going wrong, drives their present attitude.
The CAA GA division used to be more helpful in giving advice in such situations than now seems to be the case. Perhaps the fear of using against them any advice they may give, in the event of something going wrong, drives their present attitude.
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As long as your not flying for reward i thought it was ok, so instead of being gready and asking the company to pay you extra just give your time for free, maybe that will work and you still get to log some hours.
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Aerial Work/Private flight
Hello,
Thanks for the advice, so if its not public transport then its a private flight doing Aerial work ? or does Aerial work need a public cat c of a aircraft , private not. How are the two linked.?
Confused
Thanks for the advice, so if its not public transport then its a private flight doing Aerial work ? or does Aerial work need a public cat c of a aircraft , private not. How are the two linked.?
Confused
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Aerial work is by no means public transport.
But you need approved operation manual for that in my country (France).
If your company is doing powerline survey for itself, it is just private flying, even if you get paid as a pilot. (but your company has to provide the plane, not you).
If the company is performing this survey for a third party for money, than you are performing aerial work. And it requires an approved ops manual by the CAA, special insurrance....
But you need approved operation manual for that in my country (France).
If your company is doing powerline survey for itself, it is just private flying, even if you get paid as a pilot. (but your company has to provide the plane, not you).
If the company is performing this survey for a third party for money, than you are performing aerial work. And it requires an approved ops manual by the CAA, special insurrance....
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Mmm. I don't think the company can't just hire a flying school aircraft used for instruction and then actually pay you to carry out aerial work with it without coming under the auspices of being an Aircraft operator and needing an ops manual and all that malarky.
If you were paid by the flying school to carry out this aerial work at said company then you'd fall under their remit as an aircraft operator with their SOP's, insurance, ops manual etc but most flying schools aren't papered up for any other aerial work than instruction.
From working with a mixed aerial work outfit for the coastguard and then doing MOD public transport I can say in my experience it's down to legal pedantry but there you go.
If you were not paid to do it and it was a private flight rather than for "hire or reward" then that's a different business
If you were paid by the flying school to carry out this aerial work at said company then you'd fall under their remit as an aircraft operator with their SOP's, insurance, ops manual etc but most flying schools aren't papered up for any other aerial work than instruction.
From working with a mixed aerial work outfit for the coastguard and then doing MOD public transport I can say in my experience it's down to legal pedantry but there you go.
If you were not paid to do it and it was a private flight rather than for "hire or reward" then that's a different business
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Have you tried approaching your local flying school or the company you intend to rent the aircraft from ? Chances are they've been approached to do ariel work in the past and may well know about these things. I would have thought you'd be ok as long as the aircraft has an AoC ticket but don't take my word for it. I believe schools conduct pleasure flights under the auspices of a trial lesson to avoid the need for an AoC.
As you will have a pax on board to take photographs, in my mind it is a public transport flight in the same way as the GFT was conducted as if it were a public transport flight (which is basically the same scenario). I believe the fact that your company will be paying for the cost of the aircraft classifies it as a commercial opperation.
As you will have a pax on board to take photographs, in my mind it is a public transport flight in the same way as the GFT was conducted as if it were a public transport flight (which is basically the same scenario). I believe the fact that your company will be paying for the cost of the aircraft classifies it as a commercial opperation.
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Legal aspects aside, what is to be achieved by this survey? Is this for internal interest, archive, general placing of the pipeline in the surrounding countryside or more detailed records of the pipeline and the easement itself? Presumably it is not a legally required periodic safety inspection of a petrochemical pipe, is it?
Pipeline surveying is a pretty specialised business; you will achieve little in detail, I'd have thought, from 500', or do you plan to get an exemption? Are you really up to speed on 500'nav, following a feature that may or may not be well defined (older pipelines can be almost invisible), down amongst the fast pointy stuff...
Is the cameraman a Professional, or at least highly experienced? If not he will struggle to do anything useful out of a light aircraft, even if the door is removed which does not sound practical from the info given. Filming video or stills through a window, be it open or closed, is very difficult. I promise you hand held video from 500', even with a proper camera, will not tell you much except how pretty the countryside is, where the camera wobbles allow it to be seen at all. Stills photography form the air is a skill on its own, the light characteristics are not the same as on the ground.
Lots of other things to consider too, thermals, sunlight, contrast, haze, wind (the pipeline will be obscured by the aircraft at some drift angles)
It sounds to me like a job for a professional observer and/or a professional film outfit with a 'Blad and the correct lenses or a broadcast quality camera on a stabilised mount.
Pipeline surveying is a pretty specialised business; you will achieve little in detail, I'd have thought, from 500', or do you plan to get an exemption? Are you really up to speed on 500'nav, following a feature that may or may not be well defined (older pipelines can be almost invisible), down amongst the fast pointy stuff...
Is the cameraman a Professional, or at least highly experienced? If not he will struggle to do anything useful out of a light aircraft, even if the door is removed which does not sound practical from the info given. Filming video or stills through a window, be it open or closed, is very difficult. I promise you hand held video from 500', even with a proper camera, will not tell you much except how pretty the countryside is, where the camera wobbles allow it to be seen at all. Stills photography form the air is a skill on its own, the light characteristics are not the same as on the ground.
Lots of other things to consider too, thermals, sunlight, contrast, haze, wind (the pipeline will be obscured by the aircraft at some drift angles)
It sounds to me like a job for a professional observer and/or a professional film outfit with a 'Blad and the correct lenses or a broadcast quality camera on a stabilised mount.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 27th Aug 2008 at 14:12.
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The survey it self is an initial trial using a thermal imaging camera to detect water leaks by creating a leak in a field to see if the camera detects it from 1500ft ish. If this proves to be successfull then i have access to an aircraft which could be modified to suit. Seems straight forward until you look deeper into it.
Not sure where to go from here, it sound's like a job for someone who has the relevant certs but why should they get all the glory and the flying!
Not sure where to go from here, it sound's like a job for someone who has the relevant certs but why should they get all the glory and the flying!
If you do it,it may be prudent to file a Notam covering area,dates ,height,a/c colour etc,and find out about all local noise/horse/cat/hospitals/nuclear power stations/homes for the `befuddled`,etc.....
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There are two procedures you can follow:
CNAP. Low level Civil Aircraft Notification Procedures
PINS . Pipeline Inspection Notification System
All covered, its just the legal that gets in the way.
CNAP. Low level Civil Aircraft Notification Procedures
PINS . Pipeline Inspection Notification System
All covered, its just the legal that gets in the way.
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That gives us much more background.
Is this, then, just a single-point exercise where the "leak" is staged, or do you still need to fly and film the length of the pipe?
Movie or stills? Presumably movie, as that is what most TI systems are. All Police/public service airborne units use gyro-stabilised fixed units on (almost invariably) helicopters. They are very expensive, but they do this for a reason - it is the only way that works reliably.
You might prove the concept with a hand-held unit at a known and pre-planned position but I doubt that approach would work for a survey along the length of the pipeline.
The plan should work as long as the tempretaure of the leaking water is different from the surface of the land it wells up onto - others will explain the sensitivity of commercial TI systems but they are pretty cute these days. If you are from a utility or water company why not approach your local Police ASU for some guidance on what TI can do, or failing that get the manufacturer of the imaging kit to stage a demo for you. If their reps smell a sale they'll move mountains to help...
Hate to take the glory away, but this is even more specialised than it seemed at first, but if you play it correctly you just might get to set up a flying unit with the specialise kit and do it yourself, but I think it will be a major project.
CANP. PINS. Hmmm. bugger all use IMHO. You need to state exact position at exact time days in advance - how can you do that with operational and weather delays? Worry briefly, then forget about it if you ever start a permanent outfit.
Good luck!
Is this, then, just a single-point exercise where the "leak" is staged, or do you still need to fly and film the length of the pipe?
Movie or stills? Presumably movie, as that is what most TI systems are. All Police/public service airborne units use gyro-stabilised fixed units on (almost invariably) helicopters. They are very expensive, but they do this for a reason - it is the only way that works reliably.
You might prove the concept with a hand-held unit at a known and pre-planned position but I doubt that approach would work for a survey along the length of the pipeline.
The plan should work as long as the tempretaure of the leaking water is different from the surface of the land it wells up onto - others will explain the sensitivity of commercial TI systems but they are pretty cute these days. If you are from a utility or water company why not approach your local Police ASU for some guidance on what TI can do, or failing that get the manufacturer of the imaging kit to stage a demo for you. If their reps smell a sale they'll move mountains to help...
Hate to take the glory away, but this is even more specialised than it seemed at first, but if you play it correctly you just might get to set up a flying unit with the specialise kit and do it yourself, but I think it will be a major project.
CANP. PINS. Hmmm. bugger all use IMHO. You need to state exact position at exact time days in advance - how can you do that with operational and weather delays? Worry briefly, then forget about it if you ever start a permanent outfit.
Good luck!
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I have had a reply from the CAA lgal dept, they say that as i'm being paid by my company to take my work collegue flying to operate a survey camera then this is public transport and therefore i or/the operator needs an AOC even though we both work for the same company..?
I have to say the reply was in legal talk...
I prefer cj driver's response... Hey Ho
I have to say the reply was in legal talk...
I prefer cj driver's response... Hey Ho
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Originally Posted by blue monday
the magic words IF YOU BEING PAID, so donate your time for free and as i originally said don't be greedy, at least you get some free flying.
blue monday
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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