Costs of a corporate aircraft

[tsowerby]

I've been asked to price up a small jet or turboprop for my employer and would appriciate some advice from the experts...
Requirements are:
Quciker than getting to london, waiting around and flying airlines,
6-8 Capacity
Get from the midlands (UK) to Lisbon (about 1000nm) on a tank of fuel, with reserves etc.

Probably be flying to Lisbon every week or two so the hours will soon add up.

I figured the main costs are:
The aircraft itself,
Fuel,
Insurance,
Parking fees,
Landing fees,
Maintenence,
Pilots

Any others that I've missed?


I've started looking at appropriate aircraft and prices, some that I've found that meet the requirements are:
Beechcraft King Air 200, around $2m+ depending on age/state etc,
Pilatus PC12, $3m+,
Beechjet 400, $4m+,
King Air 90, $1m+

Any comments, suggestions, experiences?


I thought that once I have a few aircraft to show him then I can get prices on insurance, parking and fuel etc, but if anyone knows any ball park figures for these types of planes then that would be useful.
I'm trying to get as much info as possible in a very short ammount of time (you know how bosses are).

I've also got some figures from netjets as another option.

Thanks for anything in advance.

[youngskywalker]

I can recommend the King Air 200
Advantages are:

Plenty of them around
Plenty qualified crews
Nice size cabin for PAX and reasonably quiet
Almost as fast as an older Citation
Economical
Good short strip performace
Easy enough to get maintenance

And i'm available to start, well, now!
Worth a try!

[His dudeness]

On bit you have missed is ATC/approach fees. IŽd also have the airplane hangared (maybe you ment it with parking).
Crewtraining should be part of the package (e.g. once a year FlightSafety)

The 200 is good machine, but for a 1000nm with 8 guys in the back youŽll be on the edge. If youŽd choose one, you should look for a Raisbeck equipped airplane (Full Raisbeck if poss.) Gives you about 15 kts more Speed and way better airport performance as well as a quieter cabin. Is Airport performance really of importance? If not, youd probably be better of in a Jet such as the BJ or maybe a Citation - lets say an older Bravo. The KingAir would need roughly 4 hours to do that Job (oneway) vs. 2:15 in a BJ and 2:45 in a Bravo. The time saved might well be worth the fuel - especially if you go there every week - that is something only your employer knows. If youŽd use a CJ2 with 6 Pax youŽd save about 01:30 oneway on roughly the same fuel - downside is the price, not so much cheap ones around...if you can spend 4 mill you might find one - the difference in maintenance and overall cost (weight) compared to the BJ would make me go for it. You have plenty of baggage space and a very, very quiet cabin and very modern avionics compared to an old 200/B200 and the cost for retroffiting old airplanes if needed can be staggering...
There is a lot to think of, I donŽt know your background but IŽd recommend to really make your mind up on what is essential and what would only be "nice" to have and then IŽd try to get advice from an operator ideally that knows this field of ops. It will cost your employer, but aviation has a lot of "mines" if you donŽt know the field.
IŽd guess a guy like Phil Brockwell is a good address - but shurely there are others as well.

[dc9-32]

Rather than buy an aircraft, why not look into "hour share" with an existing owner. PM me for info.

[eghi r20]

Company A/C

Lots of companys will manage your purchased a/c for you and get it hours when you dont need it to offset the cost. Also no crew training etc.

Air Partner Biggin Hill or Gama spring to mind.............

dont shoot !! I am just thinking outside the box !

[Martin Barnes]

time to TALK TO BROCKWELL

[OOOHAAAH]

buy or rent ??...test the water first

........and a few other operators may be able to help out.........its a big pond out there.......many with goody bags and the right answers, a lot with the wrong answers....a jet is best, but depends on the size of the pocket.
Choose advisors carefully, thats all I would say at this stage.

[mutt]

Probably be flying to Lisbon every week or two

Is this enough to justify buying a company aircraft???

Mutt

[Pace]

If you are talking Lisbon you really need a jet I know of a really nice Citation 2 with Grosse weight kit where the owner might look at another half owner or hours.

A good Citation 2 will cost you from 1.7 mil $ the one above about 1 mil$ for the half share.

Like the rest here I also have a number of other options so PM me

Pace

[CL300]

EGNX-LPPT......around 2.5 hours so 5 hours return trip; every week this is 250 hours.... now if it is one every 2 weeks or so this is 100 hours... Better go Netjets and start with a card of 25 hours, no positionning costs no worries about crew availability and a guaranteed aircraft ANYTIME..and make up your mind later.

If the travel pattern extends then reassesment will be needed. Now if it is for you to fly in, then just take the aircraft you feel good about and just say that this the one. Any aircraft chosen for that little amount of hours will be a mistake anyway.. ( Except loads of cash to spend out)

Below the BOP which is around 420 hours for a light jet; it will be expensive, and it is not the aircraft it is more the aside concept of rest time, vacation, inspection, etc..

Have fun , and multiply by 2 any computations you are dead sure about, you might get into budget after all...

[bfato]

Originally Posted by tsowerby

I figured the main costs are:
The aircraft itself,
Fuel,
Insurance,
Parking fees,
Landing fees,
Maintenence,
Pilots

Any others that I've missed?

Can't think of any except Eurocontrol airways charges and FBO handling fees.

[tsowerby]

@eghi r20 and Martin Barnes - nice thinking - this is something that I hadn't considered and looks like an interesting option.

@His dudeness - I see what you mean, after looking at performance charts and ranges it's looking like a jet might be a safer option.

@mutt - I think it may be used for quick trips to the alps as well as business. Also he's talked about splitting it with several companies.

@Pace and dc9-32 - I may well be in touch if I get the go ahead for a share option. Thanks for the offer.

@CL300 - I know what you mean, I think a jet would be best based on the other replies and for safety reasons, and we'll have to get the hours in to justify it.


To all of you - thanks for the info guys, I totally get what you mean about it only being worth it if it's getting enough hours.

I'm struggling to find ballpark figures for hangar fees and insurance. Does anybody have any ideas?

[silverhawk]

Give European Business Jets (EBJ) a call.

[vintagewizard]

Try asking Emery Little for a ball park insurance quote, they are always happy to help 0870 770 9170
The other place for good cost per hour information is Conklin de decker or business and commercial aviation does a very helpful cost chart for used aircraft
If you want help finding one?!

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Check your PMs

[Flintstone]

Here you go boys, have one of these each...

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

LOL

Ha Ha Ha

[daria-ox]

Back to the topic, don't you think that the King Air would be the best option? As someone said there's loads of them around and there's plentyy of trained pilots to fly them

Flinstone, that was honest,!

[Wacked]

A Citation 2 won't do the midlands to lisbon with 6 pax, never mind 8. You need a citation 5 or bigger. Jet Options in Birmingham operate a Citation 5. I'm sure you could get a very good rate if you guarantee that many hours. It would be a lot cheaper than your own aircraft, and a lot less hassle.

[His dudeness]

An S/II could do it and they are usually cheap to aquire. But there is a reason why.

And yeah, I just looked it up, IŽm also still rated in the 200 as well!!!!

But please, donŽt pick me....