costs of Jets

[radicalrabit]

It feels like this is going on for ever and the goal is getting no nearer , Which Jet would be the most useful to be able to fly and maybe share use with some one else with? a Citation a Beech 400 or Hawker 700?
What will the training cost be to be able to fly one of these?
Oh and the lower end cost no more than $1.6M

[transilvana]

I will go for the citation, no doubt, they are cheap to operate, reliable, easy to fly and land everywhere, training around 12.000€.

[Flyer2008]

Radicalrabbit,

Check your messages

[Chilli Monster]

Radical - haven't we been here before

Citation without a doubt. Training and operating costs make it the best bet. Picking up a decent one for your price is going to be another matter as you'll need at least a II if not a V if the mission is what we discussed a while back.

[radicalrabit]

Chilie,,,

We went round in huge circles here and finally I think the costs of a B200 compard to a Citation 501 meant that we could save about £300,000, THAT IS A LOT OF TRAINING AND AT LEAST ONE DONKEY CHANGE. Providing I can get the training done and fly the thing. People tell me a Citation is much simpler to fly than a B 200 And we dont need to land in short or dirt strips so It makes sence really. Will need another pilot for about a year I think, at least 'till I have 300 hours flying under the wing, I know this year is going to be pretty busy. Why will we need a v though?
I think 90-120 mins flying time will get us a fair way even in a 501. Mission seems to be no more than 6 of us at any time and at least one of them will be sat up front !!!!! There seem to be plenty of RVSM equipped kit up for sale at the moment. Anyway I am always open for thoes of you who know a lot more than me to throw pointers and offer assistance. Just dont mention bloody Boats,,,,,grrrrrr

[Chilli Monster]

I think 90-120 mins flying time will get us a fair way even in a 501. Mission seems to be no more than 6 of us at any time and at least one of them will be sat up front !!!!!

There's your first mistake - you can have 6 people, or you can have 90-120 minutes flying time. (IFR reserves and Div fuel go on top of that). You sure won't get both out of a 501.

You need to be looking at a 550 at least.

[radicalrabit]

thanks

Thats the third different reply to that question, and It just makes me wonder why the hell people who are supposed to be professionals would blatantly lie about what A Jet will or wont do! Thanks Chili....I'll have yet another look at what is available and what they really will be capable of.
Looks like there are 550's to be had in reasonable condition for $1.3-1.5m

[roljoe]

For a 500 or 501, you don't need to consider rvsm pacquage, the optimum FL is about 280 so just the limit..and that's quite a lot of money in your pocquet..if you elect to stay at 270 max...

[flyingfemme]

RR - listen to the answers....and get a Kingair. You can't afford a jet!

[radicalrabit]

confused

ok
back to the drawing board. B 2oo Don't need rvsm taws etc.
bigger cabin less maintenance and will take more people for the same fuel load, just need longer training and more cost up front. We dont need a $3m jet to do our mission and worst case scenario we have to refuel on the odd trip. £700 per hour grin and bear it !

THATS IT .. FINAL OFFER ????

[Chilli Monster]

The training isn't any longer, and it fits your mission better for the cost required. In addition to which a B200 single crew is no problems, whereas C550/560 single crew involves a lot of hoop jumping.

Think Volvo V70 v Aston DB9 - the latter's sexier, but not as versatile. It's the same with the B200 v C550. And believe me, with the loads you're talking about you will be refuelling less with the King Air than the Citation.

[bfato]

Is this a continuation of another thread? Has anyone mentioned insurance?

I get the impression you're hoping to buy a cheap Citation, get yourself a rating and go fly it.

$12k may get you a rating but have you also budgeted for a captain or mentor pilot until you've the requisite turbine experience to be insurable?

Apologies if you're a seasoned jet jock and I've got the wrong end of the stick...

[flyingfemme]

Is that it? Yes!

A B200 is a fab aircraft and much more flexible than an entry level jet.

Get a nice 200 for the same money as a tired jet and save yourself running costs and headaches.

[Pace]

I think Radicalrabit typical mission is Blackpool to the south of france more than an hour longer in the B200 than in a Jet. How explain does a B200 cost less and save you $300,000 per year over the jet on such a mission profile?

The B200 is noisy a hundred kts slower, antiquated and expensive on parts.

Also how even when Radicalrabit has zero to 300 hrs on a PPL is he going to be able to fly this Kingair safely single pilot across Europe in all weather and thats not even considering the insurance implications?

I think there are many trying to sell something to RadicalRabit that he doesnt need for their own ends.

RadicalRabit to be honest your cheapest and best option is to approach a private owner dry lease the 100 odd hours you need and hire two competant, experienced and qualified pilots to safely carry you and your valuable cargo around and for that mission you need a jet and two crew.

Pace

[radicalrabit]

Oh Bugger !

Here we go again dont people on here ever agree on anything?

Ok well, for $1.8m We can get a Beech Jet 400 ! Then hire two pilots, unless they want to pay for the privilage of flying it to build up their hours and get the ATPL unfrozen? (what do they do while we are on the boat ?
if they dont like boats and diving?)

Or we could say "sod it !" and go to Morcambe instead !!

Now the question seems to be what, once it is bought and paid for and sat on the tarmac up here, will consume money at the fastest least productive rate? will depreciate faster than a Lada and bite you in the ar...more often than a pit bull on steroids?

Opening bid from a 1973 learjet 25 ?

Thanks again for all the PM's and responses offrers of help etc. Didnt realise pilots were such a negative bunch.. must be the stress of the job eh? Anyway please keep the advice coming.. MY CONFUSION HASNT QUITE REACHED SATURATION POINT YET !

Just had the suggestion of a Falcon 10 ?

[cldrvr]

Blackpool to South of France and back is only about 5 hours on a slower, smaller jet such as CE550 or BE400. if you make 20 trips a year that is only 100 hours on the plane, not really enough to justify ownership, why don't you guys dry/wet lease one or just charter? Try different ones out for size and comfort. After spending a year commuting to the south of France in a small cabin you will want something larger. Then buy one and have it managed by an AOC holder to offset your overhead. Alternatively try to find a partner that will go 50/50 into a private ownership arrangement.

[pitoss]

RR,
why don't you stop asking this stupid question? If you want to buy an aircraft but have to save the pilot's money you shouldn't be buying one in the first place. Second, if you really have the money to buy an aircraft and need to use PPRUNE to decide which model better fit to your needs, you prepare yourself because you are going to loose a lot of money with it. Give us a break!!!
Pitoss

[radicalrabit]

Pitoss?

Brilliant comment really constructive....

I dont need to save the pilots money I want to buy something I can learn to fly and fly myself because Its what I want to do.

I ask Pilots and Operators what they think because there is a huge diversity of skills experience and knowledge out here in Pprune and most are very helpful and informative. Many are neuteral and not trying to sell us anything so we get facts and unbiased opinions in most cases mostly by PM's

We are possibly in an unusual position being new to aviation and flying but have a purpose and the means to that end.

Thanks to the guys on here we now have a damned good idea what will work what wont work, why they will or wont and the drawbacks to each solution.

If we buy a $1.5m dollar turbo prop or a $2m jet we will have explored all the options, made an informed decision and will be happy to fly it 200 hours a year and leave it on the ground in a warm climate when not in use.

Any problems with that?
If you dont have anything constructive to say why bother coming on and making such a comment?
What on earth did you or anyone else gain by it?

[flyingfemme]

RR - the problem is that you keep moving the goalposts!

If you are a low hours PPL then what you can handle, safely, wll be different to what a high-hour ATPL can do.......are you a CPL? Is this a "for profit" mission? Or is it purely private? Why the need for a jet?

There are lots of different answers because a piece of string can be many lengths. If you are truly without many hours then a Caravan is about as racy as you can hope for - don't dismiss it; they are great aircraft and fabulous load haulers. Or you could fly right seat to somebody with more experience. If you are totally personal transport then a PC12 is a great alternative to a B200.

It's actually just like buying a car - you won't buy a TVR if you need a people carrier. If you hate maintenance costs then new, with good warranty, is a better idea. For long, cruisy trips you won't want something with a 5 gallon tank.

Define what you want more tightly and better advice will flow.....

[Wacked]

For 80k a year I'll teach you to fly a C550. And I'll even sit on your boat at no extra cost.