older aircraft
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 14 days away 14 at home
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there is a contradiction in your own reasoning:
which implies they are willing to pay more
The answer: some who are in the know will want a good operated, new aircraft with full time, properly rated pilots. Other think about price only becuase they ASSUME all planes are equal. Once they know the difference and prefer not to be a statistic they are generally willing to pay more. It is down to the brokers and operators to educate the passengers, 
We have recently noticed more and more brokers asking for the year of manufacture of the aircraft as their client will not travel in an aircraft over a certain age.
Are the clients willing to pay an extra £700Hr to charter a new aircraft? Some of the brokers here may be able to answer that one. I think not.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No contradiction
We have a good operation with aircraft and properly trained, experienced and current crew. I agree that most passengers will pay a small premium to go in a new aircraft but will not pay 1/3 more than the going rate to do so. That is the amount operators of new aircraft should be charging but they simply do not. Do not imply that "statistics" go with older aircraft, that is unintelligent NET JET speak. The statistics are with the poor operators not the good operators of older aircraft.
We have a good operation with aircraft and properly trained, experienced and current crew. I agree that most passengers will pay a small premium to go in a new aircraft but will not pay 1/3 more than the going rate to do so. That is the amount operators of new aircraft should be charging but they simply do not. Do not imply that "statistics" go with older aircraft, that is unintelligent NET JET speak. The statistics are with the poor operators not the good operators of older aircraft.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 14 days away 14 at home
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why so negative on NetJets I think you have to look inside instead of trying to find a bad guy outside. 
If you cannot get your pax to pay more for a better operation you either have a problem in communicating that your have "a good operation with aircraft and properly trained, experienced and current crew" or your passengers do not perceive your product to be of the quality you say it is. In the end everybody pays what they think a product is worth
If you cannot get your pax to pay more for a better operation you either have a problem in communicating that your have "a good operation with aircraft and properly trained, experienced and current crew" or your passengers do not perceive your product to be of the quality you say it is. In the end everybody pays what they think a product is worth
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am negative on Net Jets because they wrongly tell clients that older aircraft are less safe than newer ones. They have obviously been successful in brain washing you on this matter.
Do not worry about my operation we are busy enough and the last thing we need is a bad guy in the camp
Do not worry about my operation we are busy enough and the last thing we need is a bad guy in the camp
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aylesford, Kent.
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've just quoted a chap for a 4 1/2 hour flight in an older 125-700 and an 8 year old 125-800.
Price diff is coming up at about £7k between the two. Punter wants the new aircraft for the older ones cost. We seem to be at a complete impasse at the moment. I'm very happy to sell him the older machine and am very confident in that product but he has certainly been brainwashed into the 'newer is better' mindset. Trouble is he's not prepared to pay the premium for it.
Then again, i guess we all get punters with beer pocket and Champagne taste?
Price diff is coming up at about £7k between the two. Punter wants the new aircraft for the older ones cost. We seem to be at a complete impasse at the moment. I'm very happy to sell him the older machine and am very confident in that product but he has certainly been brainwashed into the 'newer is better' mindset. Trouble is he's not prepared to pay the premium for it.
Then again, i guess we all get punters with beer pocket and Champagne taste?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kentish
Your scenario is exactly why I started this thread. Your client has probably had the Net Jets indoctrination course. I hope you can sell to your client on the merits and history of the operator as opposed to whether the taps are gold plated or not. Do not forget that Net Jets are a pretty inexperienced operator in Europe.... Good Luck
Your scenario is exactly why I started this thread. Your client has probably had the Net Jets indoctrination course. I hope you can sell to your client on the merits and history of the operator as opposed to whether the taps are gold plated or not. Do not forget that Net Jets are a pretty inexperienced operator in Europe.... Good Luck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 14 days away 14 at home
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do not forget that Net Jets are a pretty inexperienced operator in Europe....
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 14 days away 14 at home
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and doing 62.000 flights a year make them VERY inexperienced too.... 
ps That is more experience in one year than 99% of the operators make in a life time But hey I think you fully agree with yourselves and will agree with yourselves only
ps That is more experience in one year than 99% of the operators make in a life time But hey I think you fully agree with yourselves and will agree with yourselves only
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE & Africa
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's pleasant to experience a flight occasionally where flying in a 'new' jet is not an issue. Took a Part 91 Lockheed Jetstar ride to Cape Town two weeks ago - never come across such an enthusiastic crew - like they were in a candy store with all the switchery. I spent the flight down in the jump seat and the return flight next day in the back - one of the nicest business jet flights I've been in - I rarely come across such enthusiasm amongst crew and owner. The only snag was a jammed cabin window blind.
It was sobering to see 1700 + lbs ph per engine on initial climb mind. I guess for US$1.4m compared to a 601, there's plenty in the kitty for fuel though.
It was sobering to see 1700 + lbs ph per engine on initial climb mind. I guess for US$1.4m compared to a 601, there's plenty in the kitty for fuel though.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sussex
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hawker 750
I am pleased the broker bashing has gone from the thread... Well done Monkey Boy for saying something sensible...
FYI Hawker 750, I have just booked your Hawker 800 for a flight where the "client" isn't concerned by the age of the aircraft. I have also had the pleasure of attending as passenger on one of your flights from AGP and I don't recall complaining about the age on that occasion either
Fact is that brokers do have to adhere to clients criteria, if there is no specific age restriction placed by the client, a decent broker should offer an airline that will keep the client happy and do a good job for the client (and therefore by default, for the broker). That could mean offering a new aircraft and an older aircraft and then the client can decide between a Hawker 800 or a CXL or LR60 or whatever...
FYI Hawker 750, I have just booked your Hawker 800 for a flight where the "client" isn't concerned by the age of the aircraft. I have also had the pleasure of attending as passenger on one of your flights from AGP and I don't recall complaining about the age on that occasion either
Fact is that brokers do have to adhere to clients criteria, if there is no specific age restriction placed by the client, a decent broker should offer an airline that will keep the client happy and do a good job for the client (and therefore by default, for the broker). That could mean offering a new aircraft and an older aircraft and then the client can decide between a Hawker 800 or a CXL or LR60 or whatever...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hawker750.
I apologise for No RYR's smug, self serving attitude. I can honestly say they're not all like him, only the ones who wouldn't know a 'proper' corporate flight department or GA company if it bit them in the @rse.
No RYR. It's ok having all those flights and claiming they add to the company's overall level of experience but it doesn't count if the Ops staff keep getting fired or leaving. They tend to take the experience with them. Are they running with more than one Russian speaker in the entire company now?
I apologise for No RYR's smug, self serving attitude. I can honestly say they're not all like him, only the ones who wouldn't know a 'proper' corporate flight department or GA company if it bit them in the @rse.
No RYR. It's ok having all those flights and claiming they add to the company's overall level of experience but it doesn't count if the Ops staff keep getting fired or leaving. They tend to take the experience with them. Are they running with more than one Russian speaker in the entire company now?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O2
No broker bashing from my end, think you guys do a good job, saves me a lot of hassle. The point I was making and I think this thread is about done is that it is the operation that is more important than age of aircraft, and when certain interested parties do not like this fact they are less than truthfull to the end user. My initial thread was that I would love to buy a new aircraft but the end user is unwilling to pay the huge extra cost. Net Jets is not a true market example as most of their assets have been transferred to the "owners" who are taking the huge hit on depreciation and suddenly finthat it is not so easy after all to sell their share without taking a massive hit.
Would be interesting to hear from a Net Jet sharer on this web who has sold a share and find out what the loss was.
No broker bashing from my end, think you guys do a good job, saves me a lot of hassle. The point I was making and I think this thread is about done is that it is the operation that is more important than age of aircraft, and when certain interested parties do not like this fact they are less than truthfull to the end user. My initial thread was that I would love to buy a new aircraft but the end user is unwilling to pay the huge extra cost. Net Jets is not a true market example as most of their assets have been transferred to the "owners" who are taking the huge hit on depreciation and suddenly finthat it is not so easy after all to sell their share without taking a massive hit.
Would be interesting to hear from a Net Jet sharer on this web who has sold a share and find out what the loss was.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well there's another can of worms. NJE shares and those who opt out. Of course the company protect the information on how many people do this but there are enough to keep a very sizeable sales department turning over and you wouldn't have THAT if everything were hunky-dory now would you?
In answer to your question an ex-owner told me he opted out at a cost to him of approximately £100,000.
In answer to your question an ex-owner told me he opted out at a cost to him of approximately £100,000.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smeagel
That £100,000 is on what? I suspect chartering is always better value for money than a fractional ownership when one puts ALL the costs into the equation. The fractionals are very quiet about the depreciation aspect of their schemes, happy just to say that the share is an "Asset". Would be nice if the fractionals made public the average hit the client takes. It should be all about transparency. When somebody charters my aircraft I give them the total price and that is exactly what they pay, not some extra costs in the future.
Any way got to go, have to fly tomorrow and I just want to polish the plane before I go home!
That £100,000 is on what? I suspect chartering is always better value for money than a fractional ownership when one puts ALL the costs into the equation. The fractionals are very quiet about the depreciation aspect of their schemes, happy just to say that the share is an "Asset". Would be nice if the fractionals made public the average hit the client takes. It should be all about transparency. When somebody charters my aircraft I give them the total price and that is exactly what they pay, not some extra costs in the future.
Any way got to go, have to fly tomorrow and I just want to polish the plane before I go home!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That £100,000 was the difference between what he bought his shares for and what the company paid him back when he opted out. More than one share but even so, hell of a loss.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the sun shines on the righteous
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assumption: Chartering/renting a Bizjet is like a really, really, really upmarket version of hiring a car.
I can go to my local hire car company and get a 4 year old Ford Focus LX(80000 miles, a couple of minor dents) that will get me there and back, or,...... I can ring AVIS or Hertz and get them to deliver a 3 month old Ford Focus Zetec with 3000 miles and shiny paintwork to my door step. It will cost about 25% more but if I have a problem theres lots of AVIS offices around and they will fetch me a new one. Now, if someone else is paying (or if the cost is going against tax) I would be silly not to get the better one. If I was paying for it myself to go to a stag do for the weekend, I would save my pennies and use the local firm.
Could it be said that the old 700 is the 'local firm' and Netjets is AVIS??
Discuss.........
I can go to my local hire car company and get a 4 year old Ford Focus LX(80000 miles, a couple of minor dents) that will get me there and back, or,...... I can ring AVIS or Hertz and get them to deliver a 3 month old Ford Focus Zetec with 3000 miles and shiny paintwork to my door step. It will cost about 25% more but if I have a problem theres lots of AVIS offices around and they will fetch me a new one. Now, if someone else is paying (or if the cost is going against tax) I would be silly not to get the better one. If I was paying for it myself to go to a stag do for the weekend, I would save my pennies and use the local firm.
Could it be said that the old 700 is the 'local firm' and Netjets is AVIS??
Discuss.........
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spaniel
Think you are missing the point somewhat. If you rent from Avis you are not asked to buy part of the car before you are allowed to rent it are you?
Think you are missing the point somewhat. If you rent from Avis you are not asked to buy part of the car before you are allowed to rent it are you?
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I'm not wrong NJE claims that their passengers never travel on airplanes more than 5 years old. Now this is obvious BS, they only recently got rid of the Citation VIIs, which were way older than that, and still operate number of Hawker 800XP's, the newest of which must be much older than five years. Not to guess the age of their Falcon 900B's...
Guest
Posts: n/a
If you want to pick holes in NJE take a look at their advertising. Remember "Two captains on every aircraft"? 
A passenger approached me last week and asked if it was really true that (as he had read) their pilots had a minimum of 3000 hours.
Advertising Standards Authority anyone?
A passenger approached me last week and asked if it was really true that (as he had read) their pilots had a minimum of 3000 hours.
Advertising Standards Authority anyone?