Is this legal without AOC?
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Is this legal without AOC?
I have CPL/IR. I often get asked by friends and acquaintances to do air-taxi work on light twins, which are available for hire locally. Is this legal in JAR land without an AOC?
I have heard that it is legal only if the passengers hire the aircraft, then hire me separately as a pilot. I have heard that if I hire the plane myself and offer a complete service then this is illegal. Can anybody please confirm if this is true?
I have heard that it is legal only if the passengers hire the aircraft, then hire me separately as a pilot. I have heard that if I hire the plane myself and offer a complete service then this is illegal. Can anybody please confirm if this is true?
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Yes, it IS illegal.
The flight would be classified as public transport and you would need an A.O.C to be legal.
However..........it is OK for you to split the cost of the flight (but NOT if your mates make the decisions on when and where to fly.
Ultimately it is down to you and your own morals/values etc.
Fly safe
The flight would be classified as public transport and you would need an A.O.C to be legal.
However..........it is OK for you to split the cost of the flight (but NOT if your mates make the decisions on when and where to fly.
Ultimately it is down to you and your own morals/values etc.
Fly safe
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I have been trying to find something in writing about this, but I am not sure that it exists! I will try writing to the CAA.
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Don't forget that to be legal as well you will need 700 hours TT for single pilot operations. If your aircraft is not on an AOC, public transport from A to be B then I m pretty sure what you are hoping to do is illegal.
Now if you are after hours, find a way so it doesn't look that way
Now if you are after hours, find a way so it doesn't look that way
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First of all you have to precise in which country you plan to do it (yes there's a world outside the UK...)
To me, an individual is absolutely allowed to dry lease a plane for his own private use (not making money out of his leasing) and to hire separately a pilot for his own private operations. It's the basis of many time sharing/fractional private operations business.
To me, an individual is absolutely allowed to dry lease a plane for his own private use (not making money out of his leasing) and to hire separately a pilot for his own private operations. It's the basis of many time sharing/fractional private operations business.
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It's illegal unless,
-The aircraft has 4 seats or less
-You have paid for the hire of the aircraft
-You are not paid for your services
-You pay an equal split of the hire (Cost-Share)
Or...
The people you fly either own the aircraft in question or are shareholders.
END OF STORY
Otherwise you require an AOC
The CAA will agree with this.
SKP
-The aircraft has 4 seats or less
-You have paid for the hire of the aircraft
-You are not paid for your services
-You pay an equal split of the hire (Cost-Share)
Or...
The people you fly either own the aircraft in question or are shareholders.
END OF STORY
Otherwise you require an AOC
The CAA will agree with this.
SKP
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To air synapsis:
This would be flying Foxtrot plane around Med - but surely the rules are the same for all JAR countries?
To stake and kidney pie:
So a CPL has no more privileges on this than a PPL?
This would be flying Foxtrot plane around Med - but surely the rules are the same for all JAR countries?
To stake and kidney pie:
-The aircraft has 4 seats or less
-You have paid for the hire of the aircraft
-You are not paid for your services
-You pay an equal split of the hire (Cost-Share)
-You have paid for the hire of the aircraft
-You are not paid for your services
-You pay an equal split of the hire (Cost-Share)
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There is a loophole though and I think there are a couple of operators in the UK doing this....
As long as you have a CPL, you do not own the aircraft and the passengers pay for the hire of the aircraft and your services separately (ie 2 invoices and 2 cheques must be raised) you do not require an AOC. If you want to carry cargo, you must own the cargo (ie buy it as it's loaded and sell it as it is unloaded at the destination)
The two in the UK doing this had the CAA on their back and one was caught because he didn't raise the 2 invoices. One carried newspapers the other carried eels i think!
The loophole is there (cos the CAA told me!!)
Personally not a wise choice, stick to AOC operations and keep it above board!
As long as you have a CPL, you do not own the aircraft and the passengers pay for the hire of the aircraft and your services separately (ie 2 invoices and 2 cheques must be raised) you do not require an AOC. If you want to carry cargo, you must own the cargo (ie buy it as it's loaded and sell it as it is unloaded at the destination)
The two in the UK doing this had the CAA on their back and one was caught because he didn't raise the 2 invoices. One carried newspapers the other carried eels i think!
The loophole is there (cos the CAA told me!!)
Personally not a wise choice, stick to AOC operations and keep it above board!
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So a CPL has no more privileges on this than a PPL?
You have to understand what an AOC is (no offense). It means that not everyone can do whatever they like. Aircraft maintenance, Crew qualifications, training and currency, Financial garantees etc..... all form part of a granted AOC.
The pilot is one part and his licence is no more than the right to work. A bit like a passport without a working visa (the AOC).
The two in the UK doing this had the CAA on their back and one was caught because he didn't raise the 2 invoices. One carried newspapers the other carried eels i think!
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Hello!
> This would be flying Foxtrot plane around Med - but surely the rules
> are the same for all JAR countries?
I wouldn't be so sure about that...
In our country (eastern neighbor to your F-registration domain) local aviation authorities can issue a permit for "non-commercial (*) flights against revenue" that legally permits you to conduct the type of operation that you have in mind.
There are a lot of requirements to fulfill in order to get this permit (many of them the same as for an AOC) and it is ususally limited to a certain number of flights per year, but especially for light twin operations it is a very cost-effective alternative to a full AOC under JAR-OPS!
Greetings, Max
(*) In this context "non-commercial" mainly means that you are not allowed to make any publicity for your flights nor to offer them through travel agancies or brokers.
> This would be flying Foxtrot plane around Med - but surely the rules
> are the same for all JAR countries?
I wouldn't be so sure about that...
In our country (eastern neighbor to your F-registration domain) local aviation authorities can issue a permit for "non-commercial (*) flights against revenue" that legally permits you to conduct the type of operation that you have in mind.
There are a lot of requirements to fulfill in order to get this permit (many of them the same as for an AOC) and it is ususally limited to a certain number of flights per year, but especially for light twin operations it is a very cost-effective alternative to a full AOC under JAR-OPS!
Greetings, Max
(*) In this context "non-commercial" mainly means that you are not allowed to make any publicity for your flights nor to offer them through travel agancies or brokers.
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The rules may have changed, but I doubt it.
I think the eels problem was that the company weren't 'buying' the eels before carrying them. The guy carrying newspapers was paying for them and then selling them on at the destination.
But, you can carry passengers as long as you stick to the 2 invoices and 2 cheques (one for the pilot and one for aircraft hire)
It must be some time ago now though!!
I think the eels problem was that the company weren't 'buying' the eels before carrying them. The guy carrying newspapers was paying for them and then selling them on at the destination.
But, you can carry passengers as long as you stick to the 2 invoices and 2 cheques (one for the pilot and one for aircraft hire)
It must be some time ago now though!!
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I understand you speak about UK (even if not mentioning it), and I'm not competent about your national regulations, but i doubt this would be different.
To me, a private owner has the right to hire a pilot for his bizjet without AOC.
If the guy is just leasing his aircraft it's exactly same, as long as he is not making money (commercial flights) out of the aircraft he is owning/leasing.
What part is wrong for you ready message ?
To me, a private owner has the right to hire a pilot for his bizjet without AOC.
If the guy is just leasing his aircraft it's exactly same, as long as he is not making money (commercial flights) out of the aircraft he is owning/leasing.
What part is wrong for you ready message ?
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What I have done up to now is hire the aircraft, then send an invoice to the clients for the aircraft and fuel, and another invoice for my own time. I don't actually put on the invoice that I am charging as a professional pilot - I charge for other services rendered (eg I am qualified yacht surveyor, and the clients are all yacht brokers or yacht owners etc). It seems that this is just legal?
Incidentally, the operator that I hire from does actually hold an AOC and they do their own taxi flights. But I don't suppose that changes my own situation.
Incidentally, the operator that I hire from does actually hold an AOC and they do their own taxi flights. But I don't suppose that changes my own situation.
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What you do is not legal since you are hiring the aircraft, and not the client.
A private client can lease an aircraft (which is very similar to hiring) and then choose some operator to fly it for his private use. You don't need to absolutely be the legal owner of the aircraft.
A private client can lease an aircraft (which is very similar to hiring) and then choose some operator to fly it for his private use. You don't need to absolutely be the legal owner of the aircraft.
If you are hiring the aircraft from its owner/operator and you are billing your 'customers' for both the aircraft and your 'services', and it can be proven that those services actually relate to you exercising the privileges of your licence, then you are liable to find yourself in Court.
The fact that you issue two invoices makes no difference, whatever lie you put on the second invoice to try to cover your tracks.
Not a very good basis on which to build a career in aviation is it really, but no doubt you will leave that part off your CV won't you?
The fact that you issue two invoices makes no difference, whatever lie you put on the second invoice to try to cover your tracks.
Not a very good basis on which to build a career in aviation is it really, but no doubt you will leave that part off your CV won't you?
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It has been tried before, hiring separately from the aircraft, as has been said here. However local AOC operators will be watching you carefully, and the CAA will almost certainly be asked to investigate by them. You certainly shouldn't arrange the aircraft hire yourself, neither should the aircraft owner arrange your services, then it might be hard to pin anything on you. If anything goes wrong you are going to get looked at very closely. If you are not operating to AOC standards then you are going to get a hammering in court.
It's a nightmare, and really not worth the stress or the risk to your licence.
The 700 hours AMEX mentions will apply if you are flying any twin other than a light piston. If it's a Kingair or similar, even if you have a type rating you will need those hours to fly it single-crew and get paid.
If you want to know exactly what rules apply, then read the ANO and JAR-OPS, documents sadly neglected in pilot training that suddenly become far more important than ICAO rules you do learn once you exercise the privileges of your shiny new CPL. Daft, in't it? JAR-OPS also has the benefit of helping you sleep with all the stress of trying to get some flying work. It is truly dull. It is also about to give way to EU-OPS, but they're not out yet and no real differences for you.
It's a nightmare, and really not worth the stress or the risk to your licence.
The 700 hours AMEX mentions will apply if you are flying any twin other than a light piston. If it's a Kingair or similar, even if you have a type rating you will need those hours to fly it single-crew and get paid.
If you want to know exactly what rules apply, then read the ANO and JAR-OPS, documents sadly neglected in pilot training that suddenly become far more important than ICAO rules you do learn once you exercise the privileges of your shiny new CPL. Daft, in't it? JAR-OPS also has the benefit of helping you sleep with all the stress of trying to get some flying work. It is truly dull. It is also about to give way to EU-OPS, but they're not out yet and no real differences for you.
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There is a loophole though and I think there are a couple of operators in the UK doing this....
As long as you have a CPL, you do not own the aircraft and the passengers pay for the hire of the aircraft and your services separately (ie 2 invoices and 2 cheques must be raised) you do not require an AOC.
The two in the UK doing this had the CAA on their back and one was caught because he didn't raise the 2 invoices. One carried newspapers the other carried eels i think!
The loophole is there (cos the CAA told me!!)
As long as you have a CPL, you do not own the aircraft and the passengers pay for the hire of the aircraft and your services separately (ie 2 invoices and 2 cheques must be raised) you do not require an AOC.
The two in the UK doing this had the CAA on their back and one was caught because he didn't raise the 2 invoices. One carried newspapers the other carried eels i think!
The loophole is there (cos the CAA told me!!)
Surely anybody who has (owns or leases) a plane can employ a CPL to be his personal pilot.
This is how nearly all corporate aviation works. Most corporate ops don't have an AOC.
One grey area is where some of the people carried aren't related to the business...
If you want to carry cargo, you must own the cargo (ie buy it as it's loaded and sell it as it is unloaded at the destination)
The indications are that the people who get caught for breaches of the AOC requirements are caught because the client went to other companies beforehand, asking for quotes, and when these other companies (AOC holders perhaps) didn't get the work, they went sniffing around to see who did, and reported the person to the CAA.
However, the lists of CAA's successful prosecutions are on their website, and they don't feature very much of this stuff - despite all the folklore.
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Biggest risk may be invalidating the insurance. I do agree however that it is a nonsense that you can fly the same aircraft with the same people to the same place through the same airspace on the same day and be legal or illegal depending an entry on a piece of paper. I applied for and got an AOC A to A some years ago but the burden to get an A to B is prohibitive unless you can buy an approved one and basically copy it which is what some have done in the past but; you still need premises, staff and lots of bureaucracy based admin before you can make it work. CAA can be very helpful at times and at others very very myopic IMHO. It all depends on who you are, how much you have and how you go about networking. It can just be done but not many think that is worth the hassle for usually low returns. Passengers can be very swift at passing the book to the pilot (who should know better) when something goes wrong. It may help to have a funny handshake but I couldn't possibly comment!