The End Of Single Crew Commercial Flights ?
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The End Of Single Crew Commercial Flights ?
PPL and Frequent SLF here. I fly to the Channel islands in the UK a lot both myself and with Aurigny as SLF on the trilanders.
There is much gossip on the islands at the moment that next year the CAA may reccomend that 2 pilots are needed for commercial flights in the UK. This would have huge implications for small airlines like Aurigny and passenger fares etc.
Anyone know whether these rumours are true ? Is there any good evidence that having 2 pilots is actually safer than one assuming good training and strict adherence to SOP's ?
Happy New Year !
LateFinals
There is much gossip on the islands at the moment that next year the CAA may reccomend that 2 pilots are needed for commercial flights in the UK. This would have huge implications for small airlines like Aurigny and passenger fares etc.
Anyone know whether these rumours are true ? Is there any good evidence that having 2 pilots is actually safer than one assuming good training and strict adherence to SOP's ?
Happy New Year !
LateFinals
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LF
Do you mean recommend or require/mandate.
There is a big difference as the latter will have the effect you mention whereas the former implies some option and may see Aurigny given a grandfather rights exemption to continue single crew operations as a consequence of their operational record.
I hasten to add that I have no knowledge of the proposed legislation and am just interpreting your message.
Do you mean recommend or require/mandate.
There is a big difference as the latter will have the effect you mention whereas the former implies some option and may see Aurigny given a grandfather rights exemption to continue single crew operations as a consequence of their operational record.
I hasten to add that I have no knowledge of the proposed legislation and am just interpreting your message.
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Having been closely involved (mid '70s) in getting the Agusta-Bell 212 systems certified for single-pilot IFR by the (British) CAA, I'll be following this thread with interest.
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Anyone know whether these rumours are true ? Is there any good evidence that having 2 pilots is actually safer than one assuming good training and strict adherence to SOP's ?
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TopBunk
My sources indicate that 2 crew will be "mandatory" rather than "reccomended" but I'm posting as I'm interested if anyone has any definitive info as opposed to speculation.
LF
My sources indicate that 2 crew will be "mandatory" rather than "reccomended" but I'm posting as I'm interested if anyone has any definitive info as opposed to speculation.
LF
niknak
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I used to fly on many routes as SLF, flying on BN2 or similar which often involved single crew op's.
As an aviation professional and as a commercial passenger, I often felt and expressed the view that I would be far happier with two crew flying the aircraft, especially as I was fully aware that most of the operators on most of the routes recieved regional subsidies for flying them.
The operator could have afforded to at least have employed a pilots assistant to be there to assist with the workload and, God forbid, be there to do something if the captain was incapacitated (or decapitated
).
I am still of the opinion that the fare paying passenger on any commercial service is fully entitled to the best protection, whatever the type of aircraft they're flying on and that includes having two crew on the flight deck, either of whom should be capable of handling the aeroplane.
Perhaps on the routes that could be affected by this proposal, it's time for the airlines to work with the CAA to reintroduce the concept of a pilots assistant.
Many such airlines do employ staff they are sponsoring to be future captains and, once they have reached a satifactory standard, these are just the people to do the P.A job, it would boost the company's public image, enhance pilot training, but most importantly, add a vital safety factor.
As an aviation professional and as a commercial passenger, I often felt and expressed the view that I would be far happier with two crew flying the aircraft, especially as I was fully aware that most of the operators on most of the routes recieved regional subsidies for flying them.
The operator could have afforded to at least have employed a pilots assistant to be there to assist with the workload and, God forbid, be there to do something if the captain was incapacitated (or decapitated
).I am still of the opinion that the fare paying passenger on any commercial service is fully entitled to the best protection, whatever the type of aircraft they're flying on and that includes having two crew on the flight deck, either of whom should be capable of handling the aeroplane.
Perhaps on the routes that could be affected by this proposal, it's time for the airlines to work with the CAA to reintroduce the concept of a pilots assistant.
Many such airlines do employ staff they are sponsoring to be future captains and, once they have reached a satifactory standard, these are just the people to do the P.A job, it would boost the company's public image, enhance pilot training, but most importantly, add a vital safety factor.
Last edited by niknak; 29th Dec 2007 at 20:43.
Well said Rigga,
It would be the death-knell of many helicopter operators. Two pilots would in any case be completely over-the-top for what are basically small, uncomplicated VFR machines. How ironic that other threads are talking about shifting to UAV no-pilot options for airliners, and yet here we are discussing Cessna-sized aircraft having to have two crew!
The only exception I can think of that makes sense is for full-IFR flights or for line training needs. Should remain at Ops Manual discretion, not be mandated.
Flug
It would be the death-knell of many helicopter operators. Two pilots would in any case be completely over-the-top for what are basically small, uncomplicated VFR machines. How ironic that other threads are talking about shifting to UAV no-pilot options for airliners, and yet here we are discussing Cessna-sized aircraft having to have two crew!
The only exception I can think of that makes sense is for full-IFR flights or for line training needs. Should remain at Ops Manual discretion, not be mandated.
Flug
Wunderbra
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And that instrument rating test that you do at the end of your training, that qualifies you to fly single crew.
So if single crew ops are not allowed, will you be able to use the CAA examiner as a co-pilot for the flight?
So if single crew ops are not allowed, will you be able to use the CAA examiner as a co-pilot for the flight?
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Well. Being ex Aurigny Trislander pilot myself I can say that there's sweet bugger all for another pilot to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Except for pick their nose and look out of the window
Decapitated, Incapacitated yeah yeah - I've done 4000 hrs flying single crew public transport and I've still got my head All this "just in case" stuff, well, where do you draw the line? Maybe there should be 3 pilots on every flight - just in case, and never fly to a single runway airport - just in case. As for ETOPS, how terribly silly can it all be
Decapitated, Incapacitated yeah yeah - I've done 4000 hrs flying single crew public transport and I've still got my head
All this "just in case" stuff, well, where do you draw the line? Maybe there should be 3 pilots on every flight - just in case, and never fly to a single runway airport - just in case. As for ETOPS, how terribly silly can it all be
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Amongst all the garbage written about EASA, the FAA, PPL/IRs and all the rest of it on the 'Private Flying' forum (supposedly 'the best in aviation and some other people' 
) someone wrote this:
I know that proposal is slightly different from this one and certainly wouldn't bother the Islanders but could that be from the same source LateFinals?
) someone wrote this:
There is a serious consideration right now by EASA to forbid single crew IFR above FL290 (ie RVSM), this has just in one swoop effectively reduced by 40% the range of all the capable bizjets that would normally be cruising out of the way in the upper thirties and early forties.
This will have a dramatic effect on corporate/private operators by shutting out professionally simulator trained and qualified pilots of the upper levels.
This will have a dramatic effect on corporate/private operators by shutting out professionally simulator trained and qualified pilots of the upper levels.
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I'm sorry if it offends Flying Pram.
Single crew commercial ops have a fairly safe record as far as incapacitation is concerned, that's possibly why there is a 6 monthly medical.
As a matter of interest, how many airframes have been lost due to this cause in recent history?
Single crew commercial ops have a fairly safe record as far as incapacitation is concerned, that's possibly why there is a 6 monthly medical.
As a matter of interest, how many airframes have been lost due to this cause in recent history?
niknak
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If the cost were to be imposed on all commercial passenger carrying aircraft opertaors, the cost would have to be passed onto the customer and the customer would still have to pay.
As a passenger, it doesn't matter to me if second pilot is picking his nose, serving coffee or operating the throttle while the captain fiddles with the rudder, safety is paramount over relative cost.
Ive heard all of the tales of how many years a pilot has spent in the air, or the fact that they passed their bi annual medical that morning, and they mean nothing if they or the aircraft, throw a wobbly when I, or anyone else, is in the back and the pilot is on their own.
As a passenger, it doesn't matter to me if second pilot is picking his nose, serving coffee or operating the throttle while the captain fiddles with the rudder, safety is paramount over relative cost.
Ive heard all of the tales of how many years a pilot has spent in the air, or the fact that they passed their bi annual medical that morning, and they mean nothing if they or the aircraft, throw a wobbly when I, or anyone else, is in the back and the pilot is on their own.
If you don't require 2 crew for a short flight. then doesn't a 'redcutio ad absurdam' suggest that you don't need three crew on long haul flights? Then if you use an auto pilot for the cruise stage, why do you need two crew? PIC can dose for 20 or 30 minute intervals....... What are the odds of a pilot becoming incapacitated?
As SLF, I'd rather pay more for a set of well trained 'monkeys' (as the bean counters seem to see them) up the front who have relatively little to do (compared with 50 years ago) until things very occasionally go wrong - and they earn every penny they've ever got! Maybe I'm wrong, but I look on pilots as 'salt of the earth' and worth every penny they don't get.....but I could be biased.
As SLF, I'd rather pay more for a set of well trained 'monkeys' (as the bean counters seem to see them) up the front who have relatively little to do (compared with 50 years ago) until things very occasionally go wrong - and they earn every penny they've ever got! Maybe I'm wrong, but I look on pilots as 'salt of the earth' and worth every penny they don't get.....but I could be biased.
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Hi
Myself was flying for BCI a trislander ,based on the alcatrz rock alderney.
Basically it takes "balls" to fly this kind of Operation,Aurigny had Autopilots in their TRI´S ,us ,we flew hand all the way down ,while keeping the limits and look outside for any clues.
These Pilots ,flying Tris on the Channel Islands are all well qualified and really have to work for the money they earned.
Sometimes it would had been nice to have a second Guy next to you ,helping out in busy situations.
CAA need to evaluate and see whats best ,but in my eyes if u keep the Standards high (by employing well qualified pilots)there shouldnt be a Problem flying these equipment single Hand.
i served my time ,now i can make jokes flying over GCY or JER in FL410.
Learned a lot...good practice ..fantastic basement for further jobs
So long cheers#guten Rutsch
Basically it takes "balls" to fly this kind of Operation,Aurigny had Autopilots in their TRI´S ,us ,we flew hand all the way down ,while keeping the limits and look outside for any clues.
These Pilots ,flying Tris on the Channel Islands are all well qualified and really have to work for the money they earned.
Sometimes it would had been nice to have a second Guy next to you ,helping out in busy situations.
CAA need to evaluate and see whats best ,but in my eyes if u keep the Standards high (by employing well qualified pilots)there shouldnt be a Problem flying these equipment single Hand.
i served my time ,now i can make jokes flying over GCY or JER in FL410.
Learned a lot...good practice ..fantastic basement for further jobs
So long cheers#guten Rutsch
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It has been done before, so why not bring back the "Pilot's Assistant" namely a trained PPL who has such things as an IMC rating who was there to basically get the thing down if the boss snuffed it. WHilst it was going well, the PA helped with the radio and generally looked after the passengers and did what the maestro wanted done.
Whilst it might not be totally ideal, it IS rather overkill- not to mention expensive having two rated crew on a simple aircraft such as an Islander or Trilander.
I did this in the late eighties, flying a Caravan II as a PA. I didn't get paid (except expenses) but got some great experience flying on IFR operations and got to handle the aircraft on the empty sectors. I would bet there would be no end of people up for it!
Whilst it might not be totally ideal, it IS rather overkill- not to mention expensive having two rated crew on a simple aircraft such as an Islander or Trilander.
I did this in the late eighties, flying a Caravan II as a PA. I didn't get paid (except expenses) but got some great experience flying on IFR operations and got to handle the aircraft on the empty sectors. I would bet there would be no end of people up for it!
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Was the 'pilots assistant' able to log any hours, are they rated on the plane?
I think that if the plane is being operated under commercial rules, ie. generating income from fare paying passengers then there should be 2 pilots regardless of airplane complexity or lack of, because they expect a level of safety.
Its not that the plane is so simple it only needs 1 pilot, it is system redundancy to have 2 pilots, and we all accept varying amounts of system redundancy in the aviation world.
If that means putting the cost of a ticket up, explain why it is and I am sure most pax will accept the increase in the name of better safety.
I think that if the plane is being operated under commercial rules, ie. generating income from fare paying passengers then there should be 2 pilots regardless of airplane complexity or lack of, because they expect a level of safety.
Its not that the plane is so simple it only needs 1 pilot, it is system redundancy to have 2 pilots, and we all accept varying amounts of system redundancy in the aviation world.
If that means putting the cost of a ticket up, explain why it is and I am sure most pax will accept the increase in the name of better safety.