The End Of Single Crew Commercial Flights ?
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737's ? - Yeah I'd like some of those. It's just the cash requirement which is holding it back !
The point's I was making were :
a) You can't discount Money and weight from your survey. Thats like
saying, "discounting the goals scored, will Man U win the Premiership this
season?"
b) There is a general under lying inference on this thread that single crew
ops are dangerous, and therefore should be stopped. It's not dangerous,
if operated correctly, under the guidance of JAROPS1, EU ops etc...
Unfortunately, as pointed out in my previous post, this end of the
market attracts some business owners who don't understand the
importance of flight safety. I believe the CAA are working hard to
remedy this problem.
c) The point I made about pilots flying single crew getting fast tracked to
the LHS is based on experience. It is not about ability to fly any given
aircraft type, but more to do with attitude and the ability to make
decisions, both operational and commercial. This skill is developed well
when operating single crew.
Put simply, single crew is here to stay with the smaller aircraft, and will remain a great career building block for pilots. It will also become safer and safer, as it is across the aviation industry.
Would you sooner fly on a 737-300 that is operated and registered in Equatorial Guinea with 2 crew with their National Licence's, or a KingAir 200 operated and registered in the UK with single crew with his JAR ATPL? It's all down to training and the operating procedures and safety culture of the company that counts.
The point's I was making were :
a) You can't discount Money and weight from your survey. Thats like
saying, "discounting the goals scored, will Man U win the Premiership this
season?"
b) There is a general under lying inference on this thread that single crew
ops are dangerous, and therefore should be stopped. It's not dangerous,
if operated correctly, under the guidance of JAROPS1, EU ops etc...
Unfortunately, as pointed out in my previous post, this end of the
market attracts some business owners who don't understand the
importance of flight safety. I believe the CAA are working hard to
remedy this problem.
c) The point I made about pilots flying single crew getting fast tracked to
the LHS is based on experience. It is not about ability to fly any given
aircraft type, but more to do with attitude and the ability to make
decisions, both operational and commercial. This skill is developed well
when operating single crew.
Put simply, single crew is here to stay with the smaller aircraft, and will remain a great career building block for pilots. It will also become safer and safer, as it is across the aviation industry.
Would you sooner fly on a 737-300 that is operated and registered in Equatorial Guinea with 2 crew with their National Licence's, or a KingAir 200 operated and registered in the UK with single crew with his JAR ATPL? It's all down to training and the operating procedures and safety culture of the company that counts.
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There is a general under lying inference on this thread that single crew
ops are dangerous, and therefore should be stopped. It's not dangerous,
if operated correctly, under the guidance of JAROPS1, EU ops etc...
Unfortunately, as pointed out in my previous post, this end of the
market attracts some business owners who don't understand the
importance of flight safety. I believe the CAA are working hard to
remedy this problem.
ops are dangerous, and therefore should be stopped. It's not dangerous,
if operated correctly, under the guidance of JAROPS1, EU ops etc...
Unfortunately, as pointed out in my previous post, this end of the
market attracts some business owners who don't understand the
importance of flight safety. I believe the CAA are working hard to
remedy this problem.
The Loganair accident, in particular, seems to have awakened the CAA/JAA/EASA and they have been looking closely at the whole concept of single pilot ops, not just air ambulance operations.
Put simply, single crew is here to stay with the smaller aircraft, and will remain a great career building block for pilots.
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Looks like there may be some substance to the threat to Single Pilot Air Ambulance flights, following text is from the AAIB progress report following the Islander crash:
SAFETY RECOMMENDATION - 2006-102
Considering the unique circumstances of air ambulance flights, the Civil aviation Authority, in conjunction with the Joint Aviation Authorities should review the circumstances in which a second pilot is required for public transport flights operating air ambulance services.
Response
Recommendations 2006-102 and 2006-103 were addressed to both the CAA and the JAA. The
CAA wrote to the JAA on 21 November 2006, confirming that they were ready to carry out the
required actions.
On 13 March 2007, the JAA responded that they were no longer in a position to undertake any work
on these topics and responsibility must now lie with EASA. On 28 March 2007, the CAA
representative briefed the Operations Sectorial Team on the issues involved in these recommendations: this team is overseen by EASA. In addition, the JAA agreed to write to EASA to
ask them how these recommendations should best be addressed.
The AAIB subsequently wrote to EASA requesting them to address these recommendations.
CAA wrote to the JAA on 21 November 2006, confirming that they were ready to carry out the
required actions.
On 13 March 2007, the JAA responded that they were no longer in a position to undertake any work
on these topics and responsibility must now lie with EASA. On 28 March 2007, the CAA
representative briefed the Operations Sectorial Team on the issues involved in these recommendations: this team is overseen by EASA. In addition, the JAA agreed to write to EASA to
ask them how these recommendations should best be addressed.
The AAIB subsequently wrote to EASA requesting them to address these recommendations.
Status - Response Awaited - open
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...ort%202007.pdf
Depends how you interperate the CAA being ready to carry out the required actions though, seeing as the required action are to "review" the requirement to carry a second pilot.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...ort%202007.pdf
Depends how you interperate the CAA being ready to carry out the required actions though, seeing as the required action are to "review" the requirement to carry a second pilot.
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I believe that an Air Ambulance operation should be operated with two crew. Why, because of the critical nature inherent in the specific job. There is, like it or not extra pressure to 'get in'. In the same way that the Police/Fire/Ambulance services will exceed the speed limit or pass through a red traffic signal. It is not legal though and the driver could be prosecuted.
I also believe that a 'normal' charter op should be able to operate single crew WITH WORKING AUTOPILOT and with the addition of a RAD ALT. The way that some operators get round this autopilot requirement astonishes me. Perhaps the 'someone who knows someone who knows someone in the Authority with a nice holiday home somewhere' issue should be looked into very closely.
Passengers should be given a second pilot option with a waiver to sign should they not opt for it.
Should cars have an extra driver in foggy conditions? High speed trains have an extra driver? ATC have a second controller monitoring them?
What if both pilots eat the fish for dinner?
There are some very odd personality issues at work on here and I wonder if you should really be pilots at all
I also believe that a 'normal' charter op should be able to operate single crew WITH WORKING AUTOPILOT and with the addition of a RAD ALT. The way that some operators get round this autopilot requirement astonishes me. Perhaps the 'someone who knows someone who knows someone in the Authority with a nice holiday home somewhere' issue should be looked into very closely.
Passengers should be given a second pilot option with a waiver to sign should they not opt for it.
Should cars have an extra driver in foggy conditions? High speed trains have an extra driver? ATC have a second controller monitoring them?
What if both pilots eat the fish for dinner?
There are some very odd personality issues at work on here and I wonder if you should really be pilots at all
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I would generally agree with pilotbear except:
I dont really see the islanders and trilanders operating to and from the channel islands single pilot without an autopilot as a real problem in so much as adding an autopilot is unlikely to add a great amount of safety to such an operation, these guys are doing the same routes day in day out in pretty slow aircraft, yes they have to operate in some rather poor conditions (weather) but most light aircraft autopilots would not be much help in the approach phase anyway.
(Note: I have no financial motive for this opinion)
I would however agree that even these aircraft when not operated on such simple scheduled routes should be fitted with an autopilot.
Also with regard to a RAD-ALT, surely mandating the fitting of a GPS based TAWS system such as the Garmin 530 TAWS would be a relatively simple method of adding massively to the safety? A RAD-ALT would just give another guage to add to the scan and if it was mandated then it would invariably be retro-fitted somwhere that requires minimum work on the panel which would probably be way out of the scan and therfore of little use when needed on final approach on a dark night, at least the TAWS will shout at you when you are about to hit the ground...
I dont really see the islanders and trilanders operating to and from the channel islands single pilot without an autopilot as a real problem in so much as adding an autopilot is unlikely to add a great amount of safety to such an operation, these guys are doing the same routes day in day out in pretty slow aircraft, yes they have to operate in some rather poor conditions (weather) but most light aircraft autopilots would not be much help in the approach phase anyway.
(Note: I have no financial motive for this opinion)
I would however agree that even these aircraft when not operated on such simple scheduled routes should be fitted with an autopilot.
Also with regard to a RAD-ALT, surely mandating the fitting of a GPS based TAWS system such as the Garmin 530 TAWS would be a relatively simple method of adding massively to the safety? A RAD-ALT would just give another guage to add to the scan and if it was mandated then it would invariably be retro-fitted somwhere that requires minimum work on the panel which would probably be way out of the scan and therfore of little use when needed on final approach on a dark night, at least the TAWS will shout at you when you are about to hit the ground...
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The autopilot issue is really so that you can have something flying the aircraft while you are doing something else either normal or abnormal. If one of the aircraft just mentioned had an emergency then a diversion in very poor imc wx there is just too much going on. The fact that it hasn't happened yet is just good luck.
(Slightly off subject) As is the fact that on take off you can be using full rudder to counteract the xwind (same operator), what happens if you then get an engine failure at 10'??
Just good luck so far.
(Slightly off subject) As is the fact that on take off you can be using full rudder to counteract the xwind (same operator), what happens if you then get an engine failure at 10'??
Just good luck so far.
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I would agree that adding a second crew member may be a good idea for the reasons you stated below and more but i'm still not convinced that an autopilot would bring a significant increase in safety bearing in mind;
The range these aircraft are likely to have in the event of a diversion is pretty limited so it is very likely that such a diversion airfield will be reasonably familliar and require minimum briefing.
They are simple aircraft so if there is a significant problem it is likely to be; Engine Failure (I suspect that the AFM would not permit use of the autopilot in this case,
Suction failure (autopilot will most likely take its attitude info from the AI so no use),
Electrical failure (No autopilot now),
Stuck flaps (not much to be done other than land)
As I said before in another theatre this argument would not stand up, I believe there is another islander operator at Fairoaks, I dont know if they have such and exemption.
I suspect that this is the type of argument used to justify these ops to the CAA.
This argument assumes that first you agree that single pilot ops are acceptable (safe), whilst I would argue against an autopilot giving a significant safety advantage I could not make the same argument against a second pilot, in the more critical scenarios above a second pilot would significantly reduce the workload and increase safety.
I guess that the big question is what level of risk (or percieved risk) is acceptable...
The range these aircraft are likely to have in the event of a diversion is pretty limited so it is very likely that such a diversion airfield will be reasonably familliar and require minimum briefing.
They are simple aircraft so if there is a significant problem it is likely to be; Engine Failure (I suspect that the AFM would not permit use of the autopilot in this case,
Suction failure (autopilot will most likely take its attitude info from the AI so no use),
Electrical failure (No autopilot now),
Stuck flaps (not much to be done other than land)
As I said before in another theatre this argument would not stand up, I believe there is another islander operator at Fairoaks, I dont know if they have such and exemption.
I suspect that this is the type of argument used to justify these ops to the CAA.
This argument assumes that first you agree that single pilot ops are acceptable (safe), whilst I would argue against an autopilot giving a significant safety advantage I could not make the same argument against a second pilot, in the more critical scenarios above a second pilot would significantly reduce the workload and increase safety.
I guess that the big question is what level of risk (or percieved risk) is acceptable...
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before we continue this particular topic I would be interested to know how much experience you have of singlepilot ifr ops in the typical crap winter wx we have here in the good old UK.
When you are a the end of your duty time on a really bad day, 10 mins break with the autopilot on is a significant safety increase.
Often the only time you see anything is on take off roll and touchdown, therefore the workload is constant just keeping the wings level
let alone intercepting and maintaining track/hdg/level/TSI navaids/calculating ROD, TOD /ATC/pax talking when they shouldn't (which is always)....often you have a nosy one sitting next to you/ trying to maintain track on a NDB approach with a 30kt wind across it watching the ice slowly form behind the boots
When you are a the end of your duty time on a really bad day, 10 mins break with the autopilot on is a significant safety increase.
Often the only time you see anything is on take off roll and touchdown, therefore the workload is constant just keeping the wings level
let alone intercepting and maintaining track/hdg/level/TSI navaids/calculating ROD, TOD /ATC/pax talking when they shouldn't (which is always)....often you have a nosy one sitting next to you/ trying to maintain track on a NDB approach with a 30kt wind across it watching the ice slowly form behind the boots
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Originally Posted by pilotbear
Before we continue this particular topic I would be interested to know how much experience you have of singlepilot ifr ops in the typical crap winter wx we have here in the good old UK.
When you are a the end of your duty time on a really bad day, 10 mins break with the autopilot on is a significant safety increase.
When you are a the end of your duty time on a really bad day, 10 mins break with the autopilot on is a significant safety increase.
Many moons ago, at the firm I worked at, we obtained single-pilot IFR certification for a helicopter, not even with an autopilot but a basic autostab with an integrator for 3-axis attitude hold.
Attitude drifted a degree or so per minute, so you corrected every couple of minutes with a blip on the beep trim.
The system was duplex fail-passive.
I did some of the flight test support for the certification flying.
Hardovers on the simplex variant of the system were 'quite' spectacular.... like 45° pitch-down or 60° roll in about 2 seconds (before recovery).
Hardovers on the duplex system were non-events.
I'd inject a full pitch-down hardover fault.... the red light would come on and .... nothing. Maybe a couple of degrees pitch up.
Exactly like you said, it relieved you of the basic flying task, leaving your mind and hands free to deal with nav, radio, maps, fuel etc. and maybe even to talk to the pax.
As to crap winter wx.... Scotland and the North Sea crap enough?
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Originally Posted by imustbemad
A two pilot operation is always better if the other pilot happens to be your girlfriend isn't it?
Originally Posted by ChristiaanJ
As to crap winter wx.... Scotland and the North Sea crap enough?
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before we continue this particular topic I would be interested to know how much experience you have of singlepilot ifr ops in the typical crap winter wx we have here in the good old UK.
>1400 hrs single pilot IFR covering most of Europe in various types of aircraft, plenty of which was in crap winter wx here in the UK both with and without autopilot & yes I have flown the Islander and the Trilander although not for many hours.
So do I pass the selection, am I qualified to enter this discussion??
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Flintstone,
What's bitten you? Why the baseless vulgarity?
I was simply adding to pilotbear's remark that an autopilot, even the simplest one, is a substantial addition to safety, for the reasons he stated.
We did the flight testing out of Yarmouth, not really crap weather, just wet.
Re Scotland and the North Sea, I was referring to the people who actually operated the aircraft afterwards under conditions that I would not have liked to fly in.
Oh, and so far, I haven't seen your qualifications for even posting here.
What's bitten you? Why the baseless vulgarity?
I was simply adding to pilotbear's remark that an autopilot, even the simplest one, is a substantial addition to safety, for the reasons he stated.
We did the flight testing out of Yarmouth, not really crap weather, just wet.
Re Scotland and the North Sea, I was referring to the people who actually operated the aircraft afterwards under conditions that I would not have liked to fly in.
Oh, and so far, I haven't seen your qualifications for even posting here.
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800 - the reason i ask is that there are many on here who have opinions on situations they have never encountered and like to tell you how you should do your job. This I am sure you will have encountered and I really cannot be arsed with those know-it-alls getting in the way of an intelligent debate.
It is sometimes quite hard to cut through the egotistical crap.
Flintstone -
It is sometimes quite hard to cut through the egotistical crap.
Flintstone -
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Christiaan, It must be awful. I mean, just imagine. Being born without a sense of humour. You have my utmost sympathy. I suppose it could be worse though. To paraphrase Stevie Wonder, you could have been born French.
I need qualifications to be here? Really? Nobody told me that when I joined all those years ago, I must have slipped through the net.
Please don't tell them I'm a lowly wannabee whose aviation experience is confined to my mock-up cockpit in the spare bedroom, MS2000 and hanging around the airport perimeter collecting aircraft registrations. Please don't. Otherwise 'they' might make me leave.
Seriously Christiaan. When you get up out of your seat is the cushion left in a puckered up starfish pattern? Lighten up, you'll live longer
Oh, and so far, I haven't seen your qualifications for even posting here.
Please don't tell them I'm a lowly wannabee whose aviation experience is confined to my mock-up cockpit in the spare bedroom, MS2000 and hanging around the airport perimeter collecting aircraft registrations. Please don't. Otherwise 'they' might make me leave.
Seriously Christiaan. When you get up out of your seat is the cushion left in a puckered up starfish pattern? Lighten up, you'll live longer
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Flintstone,
With a willy your size, better be careful around helicopters. Choppers aren't called that for nothing....
Ah...
Mine was a Gloster Meteor one in the attic. Mid-fifties. But I did progress beyond that.
So maybe you will too, one day. All hope's not yet lost.
With a willy your size, better be careful around helicopters. Choppers aren't called that for nothing....
... my mock-up cockpit in the spare bedroom...
Mine was a Gloster Meteor one in the attic. Mid-fifties. But I did progress beyond that.
So maybe you will too, one day. All hope's not yet lost.
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Are you kidding? If I go back just two generations I find English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish ancestors and considering every horny bugger with a boat has been pitching up on these shores for the last few thousand years, stealing the sheep and tupping the womenfolk ANYTHING could be lurking up the family tree.
It would be fairly embarassing to find any Dutch ancestors although come to think of it orange is my favourite colour.
It would be fairly embarassing to find any Dutch ancestors although come to think of it orange is my favourite colour.