Air Med Seneca Down
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Light Twin from Kidlington missing
Hopefully this will not turn out to be as serious as the story suggests.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/7152860.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/7152860.stm
Aircraft crash pilot found alive
from BBC website
Aircraft crash pilot found alive
A pilot has been found alive after a twin-engine light aircraft crashed near an airport in Oxfordshire.
The plane was returning from the Hampshire when air traffic control lost contact at about 1710 GMT, four miles from Oxford Airport at Kidlington.
The surviving pilot, found in Wytham Woods about 2030 GMT, was taken by ambulance to John Radcliffe Hospital.
The aircraft is owned by Air Medical Ltd, a firm based at the airport which supplies air ambulances.
A police helicopter search team discovered the plane.
The light aircraft sent a distress signal at about 1709 GMT. A police cordon will remain around the scene throughout the night. The Civil Aviation Authority is expected to begin an investigation on Thursday morning.
Aircraft crash pilot found alive
A pilot has been found alive after a twin-engine light aircraft crashed near an airport in Oxfordshire.
The plane was returning from the Hampshire when air traffic control lost contact at about 1710 GMT, four miles from Oxford Airport at Kidlington.
The surviving pilot, found in Wytham Woods about 2030 GMT, was taken by ambulance to John Radcliffe Hospital.
The aircraft is owned by Air Medical Ltd, a firm based at the airport which supplies air ambulances.
A police helicopter search team discovered the plane.
The light aircraft sent a distress signal at about 1709 GMT. A police cordon will remain around the scene throughout the night. The Civil Aviation Authority is expected to begin an investigation on Thursday morning.
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Weather not good tonight due to low cloud and mist; my home base was on IFR minimums when I arived, the next aircraft went around.
3 hours to find the aircraft sounds like a very long time to me, any reason it took so long?
If the aircraft crashed in woods the trees tend to cover the wreckage and it is very hard to see even in daylight where it is. Also the low temperatures mean any wreckage or bodies will get cold very quickly and not show on a thermal camera. If the trees have leaves it is even more difficult to see as the moisture in the leaves forms a visual thermal blanket over the area.
If the weather was as bad as suggested the Police helicopter did well to launch and even get into the area. If it was the Benson machine it is an old un-stabilised T1 model. So well done to them.
FNW
If the aircraft crashed in woods the trees tend to cover the wreckage and it is very hard to see even in daylight where it is. Also the low temperatures mean any wreckage or bodies will get cold very quickly and not show on a thermal camera. If the trees have leaves it is even more difficult to see as the moisture in the leaves forms a visual thermal blanket over the area.
If the weather was as bad as suggested the Police helicopter did well to launch and even get into the area. If it was the Benson machine it is an old un-stabilised T1 model. So well done to them.
FNW
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Previous thread running below which suggests that the pilot had been found alive !
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305233
Also BBC News reports pilot found alive and taken to John Radcliffe in Oxford
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/7152860.stm
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305233
Also BBC News reports pilot found alive and taken to John Radcliffe in Oxford
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/7152860.stm
Controversial, moi?
What an emotive phrase 'XYZ down' is in a title. Is it to add drama alongside the thrill of being first to post bad news?
It is often apparent that in their haste the post originator hasn't actually looked to see if the news has already been posted, as in this case.
It is often apparent that in their haste the post originator hasn't actually looked to see if the news has already been posted, as in this case.
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The local Police ASU's were unable to launch due to fog/low cloud and this therefore took away the thermal camera option intially. The search and rescue helicopter eventually arrived and was able to penetrate the gloop and locate the wreckage with it's thermal camera within a very short period.
Prior to this it was a search by foot and vehicles of a large wooded area which takes time. A good advert for the use of a ariel platform with a thermal camera for search's of large open area.
The local news state that the pilot is Ok with facial injuries and was removed by a spinal board for precautions only, This is excelent news.
Prior to this it was a search by foot and vehicles of a large wooded area which takes time. A good advert for the use of a ariel platform with a thermal camera for search's of large open area.
The local news state that the pilot is Ok with facial injuries and was removed by a spinal board for precautions only, This is excelent news.
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I am really sorry to hear about this incident. I used to fly Senencas - then I grew up. How long before UK operators start to realise that the Seneca is a 'widow maker' ? The CAA should ask potential operators to provide evidence that they have a 'paid up share capital' of £2million before issuing an AOC. If they did, we would all be spared these 'Seneca sorry stories'. If you cannot afford turboprops or jets, don't fly public transport. Piston operators are trying to make charter affordable to those who cannot really afford it. 
With any luck, Avgas prices will put paid to that in the near future.
Regards
CG
With any luck, Avgas prices will put paid to that in the near future.
Regards
CG
As someone who operated a fleet of piston twins for many years and who is still happy to fly in a Seneca, I would be interested if you could elaborate on your theory and substantiate your claims to their being inherently unsafe.
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Why piston twins are inherently unsafe
I think it is the single-engine climb performance that is a factor. Remember that at the point of engine failure in a twin, one loses 50% of thrust but due to drag not reducing straight away (and possibly increasing due to use of opposite rudder, non-feathered prop etc.), PERFORMANCE drops by something like 70-80%.
Plus piston engines are not as reliable as a jet/turbo-prop.
Plus when piston engines fail they generally do so without much warning.
Plus piston engines don't have much in the way of 'trend monitoring'.
Plus most of the piston twins operating in the UK must be 20-30 years old and used by companies that may be operating 'on a budget’. This includes maintenance.
Plus they are generally crewed by pilots in their first job, flying to get the multi time and using the job as a stepping-stone.
Plus they are generally flown single crew.
People think two engines are better than one but compare a Seneca to a large piston single and yes, it has a greater chance of making it to an airport if it loses and engine in the cruise...
...but it also has twice the chance of an engine failure overall and if that failure comes at a critical phase of flight then it has twice the chance of an accident, bearing in mind that piston twin pilots are trained to climb (or attempt to) on the live engine rather than make a forced landing.
Personally I would rather get into a Cessna Caravan (the single engine turbo-prop) than a piston twin any day.
Why we cannot use single engine turbo-prop for public transport is beyond me.
Best wishes to the pilot and family of the Air Med Seneca and I wish him a swift recovery.
Plus piston engines are not as reliable as a jet/turbo-prop.
Plus when piston engines fail they generally do so without much warning.
Plus piston engines don't have much in the way of 'trend monitoring'.
Plus most of the piston twins operating in the UK must be 20-30 years old and used by companies that may be operating 'on a budget’. This includes maintenance.
Plus they are generally crewed by pilots in their first job, flying to get the multi time and using the job as a stepping-stone.
Plus they are generally flown single crew.
People think two engines are better than one but compare a Seneca to a large piston single and yes, it has a greater chance of making it to an airport if it loses and engine in the cruise...
...but it also has twice the chance of an engine failure overall and if that failure comes at a critical phase of flight then it has twice the chance of an accident, bearing in mind that piston twin pilots are trained to climb (or attempt to) on the live engine rather than make a forced landing.
Personally I would rather get into a Cessna Caravan (the single engine turbo-prop) than a piston twin any day.
Why we cannot use single engine turbo-prop for public transport is beyond me.
Best wishes to the pilot and family of the Air Med Seneca and I wish him a swift recovery.
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Plinkton makes some good points, just my thoughts on it though...I flew piston twins for a few years commercially.
No real argument there, though its not really comparing apples and apples. Simple point, piston engines are cheaper to buy and to run just not in fuel costs. Many of these flights simply would not happen if the only option was turbine powered and many of the clients that start by hiring light piston twins go on to hire turboprops later as they want more done.
Dunno bout that, I've had run downs to sub idle on a turboprop with no warning and had a piston throw a valve with no apparent loss of performance, just enough vibration to loosen teeth. Sticking my neck out most piston engine failures are not due to the core engine but based in the ancillaries and turboprops have many of the same issues.
The technology is available for pistons same as for many others, oil analysis every x hours, magnetic plugs, frequent oil changes and decent pilots, though I accept its not as formalized as many bug airlines.. but then neither are many turboprop light jet operators.
Every UK piston I've flown has been maintained in accordance with the regulations as a minimum and most way beyond. Infact I've had more issues on turbos where the costs can be astronomical than pistons where repair and overhaul costs are somewhat more manageable.
Everyone gotta start somewhere, seen lots of incident free flying by low hours guys on light twins, also seen plenty of airliners bent by highly experienced pilots.
No need for more, and plenty of light turbo props and jets are flown single crew as well.
Where I learned we were always told that flight on one engine is not assured and the best option may be to close the other throttle and take the fence at the end of the field at 40 knots rather than go vertically in from 300'. But I accept that there is an issue
Plenty of caravan singles have crashed....ice anyone?
I would suspect it is not because the twin piston would be replaced by single turboprops but that the twin turboprop would be.
The whole piston twin thing will probably die anyhow out as the VLJ market expands and costs come down...maybe
Plus piston engines are not as reliable as a jet/turbo-prop.
Plus when piston engines fail they generally do so without much warning.
Plus piston engines don't have much in the way of 'trend monitoring'.
Plus most of the piston twins operating in the UK must be 20-30 years old and used by companies that may be operating 'on a budget’. This includes maintenance.
Plus they are generally crewed by pilots in their first job, flying to get the multi time and using the job as a stepping-stone.
Plus they are generally flown single crew
bearing in mind that piston twin pilots are trained to climb (or attempt to) on the live engine rather than make a forced landing.
personally I would rather get into a Cessna Caravan (the single engine turbo-prop) than a piston twin any day.
Why we cannot use single engine turbo-prop for public transport is beyond me
The whole piston twin thing will probably die anyhow out as the VLJ market expands and costs come down...maybe
