CATII and CATIII aircrafts??
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There is no legal right to use it in US and in Europe because there is no EVS Aproach published yet, so you are restricted to the minima of the published app you are shooting even if with the EVS you can see the ground, its not a licence to burst the minima.
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Advanteges of CAT II vs. CAT I
The big advantage of CAT II or III against CAT I is not the actual ability to execute it. Much more important is the preflight planning advantage. If you read a forecast of Moscow in winter, you will find almost half a year conditions below CAT I. So you need 2 alternates for planning. As the alternates with better wx are at least on hour flight time away, many planes don't have the range. Especially the need of a category higher for the alternate. So if you are able CAT II your alternate is good with CAT I.... At least this helps to plan legally. If you check the planning of the planes in UUWW for legality, the ramp would not be crowded anymore 
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Lindberg,
You bring up a very good, in fact excellent point!
On the other hand Private aircraft are able to execute an approach with weather below mins. Frequently what is reported in UUWW is not what the real conditions are. I have found that the forecasts are frequently erroneous.
Again an excellent point you make, though.
You bring up a very good, in fact excellent point!
On the other hand Private aircraft are able to execute an approach with weather below mins. Frequently what is reported in UUWW is not what the real conditions are. I have found that the forecasts are frequently erroneous.
Again an excellent point you make, though.
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Thanks bman0429
You met exactly the point. In some areas the weather reports are quite erroneous, not to say there are just two forecasts available: one for summer and one for winter. As long as the weather is better than the forecast , everybody can land without troubles. But I experienced also the opposite... So if you arrive from Europe in a Citation... you barely have the range to continue to St. Petersburg or Helsinki. So you have no choice and shoot the approach. Doesn't matter if you are private or on an AOC.... Even filing private because of weather, doesn't change the situation, just the legal point of view. I am qualified to fly CAT II, and I am not keen to do it. But sometimes you have to, and than you are happy to be trained and certified.
Don't plan in the sh.... - you get in there sometimes anyway!
You met exactly the point. In some areas the weather reports are quite erroneous, not to say there are just two forecasts available: one for summer and one for winter. As long as the weather is better than the forecast , everybody can land without troubles. But I experienced also the opposite... So if you arrive from Europe in a Citation... you barely have the range to continue to St. Petersburg or Helsinki. So you have no choice and shoot the approach. Doesn't matter if you are private or on an AOC.... Even filing private because of weather, doesn't change the situation, just the legal point of view. I am qualified to fly CAT II, and I am not keen to do it. But sometimes you have to, and than you are happy to be trained and certified.
Don't plan in the sh.... - you get in there sometimes anyway!
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Where have you read that as privat you can go below minima ???
or may be you mean that you are not subject to do the Approach Ban... If you are in Moscow Wx minima before or after the OM will not help you for the alternate anyway !
The planning case is a valid one as only 3% of the flight need to be shot on CAT II, but also on long Range after 7 or 8 hours flight if the wx is slighly below minima in Teterboro for example you will have to divert to White plain Atlantic city or back to Boston...quite far from final destination for the pax.. if you are CATII you just have to filled a second alternate Newark and you will land CatII there . much better for everybody !
or may be you mean that you are not subject to do the Approach Ban... If you are in Moscow Wx minima before or after the OM will not help you for the alternate anyway !The planning case is a valid one as only 3% of the flight need to be shot on CAT II, but also on long Range after 7 or 8 hours flight if the wx is slighly below minima in Teterboro for example you will have to divert to White plain Atlantic city or back to Boston...quite far from final destination for the pax.. if you are CATII you just have to filled a second alternate Newark and you will land CatII there . much better for everybody !
Last edited by falconbis; 12th Dec 2007 at 22:03.
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Falconbis,
I see your point, but your scenario does not apply to private aircraft. For for hire operators CAT II & III ops may be econ. feasible, but for private aircraft operators it would seem to be diffiuclt to justify the extra/cost effort for something that may not be frequently limiting.
Save for people who operate in and out of some special problem enviros I don't see a great advantage to maintaining crew/aircraft certification for Cat II or III.
I agree with you both on the planning scenario.
Personally if you don't have autoland/autobrakes you got no business doing a CAT III. I did one in a the 400 into PVG and it was just plain creepy!!
I see your point, but your scenario does not apply to private aircraft. For for hire operators CAT II & III ops may be econ. feasible, but for private aircraft operators it would seem to be diffiuclt to justify the extra/cost effort for something that may not be frequently limiting.
Save for people who operate in and out of some special problem enviros I don't see a great advantage to maintaining crew/aircraft certification for Cat II or III.
I agree with you both on the planning scenario.
Personally if you don't have autoland/autobrakes you got no business doing a CAT III. I did one in a the 400 into PVG and it was just plain creepy!!
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See there you go being negative again.
I just tell the crew to think happy thoughts and maybe that bad ole weather will just up and go away
!!
Seriously if you cannot loiter and wait you go elsewhere to the alternate.
Falconbis, You must be a fellow member of the order of Sleepless Knights!!
I just tell the crew to think happy thoughts and maybe that bad ole weather will just up and go away
!!Seriously if you cannot loiter and wait you go elsewhere to the alternate.
Falconbis, You must be a fellow member of the order of Sleepless Knights!!
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Hey guys,
I try to keep things light hearted. Seriously though how many CAT II approaches have you been required to do. I've been, but am not currently CAT III qual'd and in the four years it was maintained it was used only once.
As has been stated prior the requirements are very high to maintain.
Also for the example of going to TEB there are about a dozen airports a stones throw away from TEB. There are plenty of other places to choose from that may have better weather.
I can tell you that the vast majority of operators do not train to CAT II/III standards. Larger companys might, but not even all of them do.
Falconbis, what did aircraft do before CAT II/III standards were approved?
I try to keep things light hearted. Seriously though how many CAT II approaches have you been required to do. I've been, but am not currently CAT III qual'd and in the four years it was maintained it was used only once.
As has been stated prior the requirements are very high to maintain.
Also for the example of going to TEB there are about a dozen airports a stones throw away from TEB. There are plenty of other places to choose from that may have better weather.
I can tell you that the vast majority of operators do not train to CAT II/III standards. Larger companys might, but not even all of them do.
Falconbis, what did aircraft do before CAT II/III standards were approved?
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They flew Cat I Approach or divert ! As you know if the wx is bad in TEB it will be bad at a stone throw away too ... that s why most of professionnal operators doing Long Range take the fuel for an alternate at least 200NM around the final destination if the Wx at ETA is marginal at the time of Departure ! but its still possible to operate that kind of flight like the local flying club too...
you are right most of bizjets operators are not CAT II / CAT III, because you have to be trained and checked twice a year when some operators don t even go to the sim once a year.
you are right most of bizjets operators are not CAT II / CAT III, because you have to be trained and checked twice a year when some operators don t even go to the sim once a year.
