NetJets Europe - 10th Dec start

[rvator]

unfair

Originally Posted by smeagel

Why do you think they do it though rvator? To create animosity between the crew of course. The company are doing everything in their power to prevent them from becoming a cohesive group because they know that when they become organised, as they eventually will, the game will become harder. It worked for the crew in the US and it will work here.

...that's why I thought I was free not to sign their ****y (for a French...) contract and was absolutely free to leave the company..........that is not the way it is with Netjets !!!..........love it or get f-u.c;k.e_d !!!.........

not happy to discriminate employees with their unfair contract they also prosecute when you want to leave......

[Smeagel]

Oh dear. I so, so promised myself not to get drawn in but the flesh is weak. All those NOT wanting to read another Smeagel doom and gloom diatribe look away now.

rvator. You have to understand the mentality of the people you are dealing with. Not content with having absolute control (even appointment of a training captain had to be approved by R Santulli) they are also spiteful. Cross them as others have done and not only will they see you out of the company they'll do it in the nastiest way possible. You only need to look at the number of legal wrangles being fought by ex-crew against the company for proof of that.

Play them at their own game and treat the contract with the contempt it deserves which is to say, ignore it. Get another job, take all your leave at once and do your new type rating training while on holiday for which you are being paid by NJE then at the end of your holiday/training resign without notice. The advantage of that is they can't pull their usual trick of stopping your pay.

Oh, hang on. Someone else has already done it. Great idea though!

Sorry for the thread hijack. You new guys and girls get on with talking about your new job.

Bisous.

[FourGreenNoRed]

For all the prospects: If you work for NJE your typerating will be paid by the company and you will be bonded for two years. If you decide to leave earlier, your part of the rating will be deducted from your salary.
Normal procedure so far.

However, some of the former colleques decided to leave without paying back what they owe to the company as described by S earlier.

Surpirsed that the company wants their money back?

[Smeagel]

Not at all surprised FourGreen. After all, if you sign a deal you should abide by it (you can see where this is going, can't you? ).

Bonds are a much better option (for us) than paying for a type rating although there's always someone ready to spoil it as a recent thread here showed when a pilot openly admitted he was taking a new TR from a company then leaving. Ruins it for those that follow.

But what about when it's the employer who moves the goalposts? With Netjets you once again have pilots who joined the company and without being asked had the terms and conditions of their conract changed.

There are several examples of pilots handing in their notice and having their salary summarily stopped. No discussion, no consultation. Their income was frozen. Not only that but their company credit cards were blocked as were their Blackberries which considering the pilots concerned still had three months to work before leaving makes it a little difficult for them to do their jobs. Talk about shoot yourself in the foot.

I just happen to think things could be handled in a more mature manner instead of the knee jerk reflex so common from the Lisbonites.

[FourGreenNoRed]

This shouldnt happen!!

But it happens when pilots leave which are still in their bond period. Since some left the company the way Smeagel describes the ones responsible to get the money back seem to have no other choice then keeping the salary.

Understandable isnt it?

Things changed, but some colleques ruined the paved way by abusing it to the max extend possible. Left excactley as promoted by S-Man. And leave ashes behind.

Well done chaps!

[artip]

FourGreenNoRed,

If you ask me, it is the other way around, first people left honouring the 90 days notice and saw their pay cut immediately by NJE. So now there is a tendency for pilots when they leave, to just walk out at the end of the month when their salary is in the bank.


Is it the correct way to go? Not in my opinion, but fully understandable since there is no two way communication with nje finance/hr.

Cheers,
A

[2604]

UK laws

It is illegal for an employer to deduct any monies from a salary without the employee's approval. Even if the employer is thought to be owned money.

Another legal case between Netjets and an ex-employee is about to take place.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Looks like both sides play foul here. Who was first the egg or the hen? The pilots who dont pay their bonds back if they had to or the company which holds back the salary?

I really dont mean to be the companies (=devils) advocat, but it looks like the salary cuts happen because pilots leaving didnt feel to pay their outstanding debts.

But to answer foul play with foul play?

Strange behaviour from both sides.

[Flintstone]

From personal experience I can tell you that the company were the first to play foul here. About six years ago they took it upon themselves to 'adjust' the salary scale telling anyone who was not happy they could leave. Some did and the word began to spread that a contract with Netjets was not worth the paper it's written on.

Soon afterward a number of pilots left some of whom did not honour their bond. Given that Netjets had been the first to breach their own contract I don't think you can blame the pilots for not playing by the rules.

It's happened again since. Every so often they decide they don't like the contract, introduce a new one and the cycle continues.

I'm not stirring here, merely stating facts. It's all well documented as are the legal battles between aggrieved ex-employees and NJE/NTAS. 2604's comment that another case is in the pipeline does not surprise me at all and I know of at least one pilot who is plotting his escape in such a way that the company cannot keep his salary.

It could all have been so much better

[blablablafly]

Hi Flintstone

Last time they changed the contract they did it to improve the terms There have been a lot of changes in the last year for the positive and to talk about stuff of 6 years ago makes you as positive as the Smeagel guy...

[CREAMER]

Look everybody..

Stop being such party poopers... These new guys are going to have a great time when they join and I jolly well hope I can make it to Lisbon for some tea and biscuits so they can buy me a beer or two..

[redsnail]

tea and biscuits

Is a euphamism for a disciplinary meeting.

You sure you want that?

[Flintstone]

blablafly.

I didn't come here for an argument. I merely stated facts. Proveable, documented facts.

When the company started imposing changes is irrelevant. It is those changes that created Netjets' reputation and gave people the idea of leaving without notice or paying their bond. The company brought it upon themselves. Accusing me, Smeagel or anyone else of negativity doesn't change that. Don't shoot the messenger.

You say they improved the terms last time, was that for everyone? I ask because I keep meeting guys downroute who tell me the tax farce is forcing them out of the company.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the changes in tax/social contribution arrangements imposed by the company? Or were they agreed with the crew after consultation and negotiation? Let's not have an emotive argument. Let's stick to the facts. After all, people who look here are seeking information on their career and whitewashing things won't help them.



Perhaps you could clarify those two points for me:

1. Has every single crew member benefitted from the latest contract changes?

2. Were these changes introduced by mutual agreement?

[Biscane]

Orange rules

Hey Artip,
Are you a Dutchy?
Biscane

[Flintstone]

Well blabla. I see you posted in another thread less than an hour ago so you've been here.

Would you like to answer my questions please? To save you scrolling up I'll repeat them.




1. Has every single crew member benefitted from the latest contract changes?

2. Were these changes introduced by mutual agreement?

[FourGreenNoRed]

Hey Flintstone. Why so harsh? Almost threatening poor blabla.

You know as good as I do, that you can not de-riddle this mess with two questions.

There are so many things said here in this forum regarding the Tax-Situation, about the French being special (as always ) as part of the EU and not part of the EU and the mess in Danmark. The No 1 desire from the poll and so on. Yes they overrecruited to compensate for quite a bit so that gives you an idea how they want to handle this. More prospects for you pretty soon

Do you really think you can please everybody? Every single one?

Come on wake up.

[Flintstone]

4Green.

I'm not threatening him, not being harsh, I'd just like a response. blabla entered the conversation, I asked questions, no answer so I asked again. I'm seeking clarification because it seems to me that whenever these 'awkward' questions get asked they are conveniently overlooked.

I'm more than happy to describe the positive parts of working for Netjets, why can't others acknowledge the negative? Painting flawless pictures is deceitful and does no service to those on the outside seeking information.

I also know you can't please all of the people all of the time but you have to admit that the number of pilots disadvantaged by the tax bodge is significant. If I were thinking of joining a company I would like to know as much about its track record as possible, as would you I'm sure.

As for more prospects there are already more than enough of your colleagues seeking work elsewhere to keep recruiters all over the place busy. How about you? Fancy a job?

[blablablafly]

Sorry Flintstone I have a life so I cannot always answer as swiftly.

I already answered to Smeagel that there are two groups that have issues and that are the French and Belgium pilots. I also told him that those are looked into with the belgium authorithies. Knowing the latter I would not hold my heart. The french issue is currently impacting CityJet, Ezy and Ryr among others as well as NetJets and is a typoical french way of protecting the market and I have no idea how if at all this will be solved. So yes it was an improvement for 90% of the crew and might not be (Yet!) for 10%.

Mutual agreement: no because we have not organised ourselves and we got the improvement anyway

Now answer my question:

Who are you working for at the moment? They must have much better terms than we do so my question is who are they

[Flintstone]

Sorry Flintstone I have a life so I cannot always answer as swiftly.

Yet you found time to write in another thread? Ahh, I see. No difficult questions in that one

blabla. As I said to 4Green I'm not looking for a fight however it both amuses and frustrates me when people paint a glamorous picture without acknowledging the downside. Many also see NJE as their great benefactor when in fact they are just another company looking to satisfy the shareholders and upper management who all want their bonuses. People at that level don't give a flying toss about the individuals. They look solely to the bottom line. That is how big business works. What they gave you this time around was the minimum they thought they could get away with while maintaining 'acceptable losses' of personnel. (I daresay pilots muttering 'union' also had something to do with it. Read your own crew forum for some very excellent information on the steps NJE took and are taking to fend that off).

In simple terms they decided to impose a tax arrangement on you all. Please don't try to make it look like anything it is not. You were never asked if this suited you at all. They forced an arrangement that they knew would disadvantage many of your colleagues, certainly more than the 10% you claim. 4Green acknowledged this when he/she wrote "they overrecruited to compensate for quite a bit so that gives you an idea how they want to handle this".

Once again NJE blissfully ignored its own written contract and did what it wanted. This time it didn't do you (personally) any harm but what about the next time? Please don't think it won't happen because it will. I know you don't like being reminded of things they have done in the past but it's important because they keep doing it and will continue to do it when it suits them.

Why do you think this was all in the pipeline for so long? Why did they conduct the 'survey' then hold out for so long on the rsesults? They needed time to over-crew, to have extras ready for when the resignations happened.

And who are the people who are resigning? Some are long serving employees who joined NJE in its infancy and helped make it the company from which you now benefit. I wonder, if your own country's tax arrangements were less favourable would you be so dismissive of your French and Danish colleagues?

People like CL300 and one or two others understand all this perfectly. They are, on the whole, pro-NJE but no longer automatically counter everything negative about the company. In fact they don't write much here any more which should tell you something. You could do worse though than to read what they do write. Pay attention to what's between the lines, it says a lot.

That's the end of 'Big Business. Module One'


I don't quite see why which company I work for is relevant to all this but seeing as you asked I'll gladly tell you that I work for TAG. A company that does not require me to live by instructions from a Blackberry, treats my colleagues and I as professionals and human beings, does not impose changes against our will and is an all round nicer place to be. The salary is about the same but all in all yes, they do have "much better terms than we do". Quality of life for one.

Happy to discuss any of this with you over a beer down route somewhere. No animosity, just a frank explanation of facts.

Cheers


Flinty.

[nimrod]

As the one who started this thread, all I can add is that it looks like there will be some interesting conversation in the bar!