Is there a place for piston twins?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Sweden
Is there a place for piston twins?
This is something I've thought about for a while. Is there a need for a replacement Piper PA31 type aircraft, or is that market completely dead?
What would you use instead?
It seems these days everyone is focused on single engine TPs or jets, but are they actually ecnomical to operate on shorter "Navajo country" routes?
Considering the amount of PA31 type aircraft still in operation there must be a shortage of replacement types. If you were to start with that type of operation today what aircraft type would you select?
What are you using if you replaced your Pipers?
Nope, I don't plan on building an aircraft, but I can't figure out what to use instead of a PA31 for shorter routes and with limited pax, short-ish fields and not all paved. Taxi/charter operation so requires twin engines and flexibility as well as decent speed and load hauling capacity from a variety of airstrips.
Normal flight times in the 1 hour range (at 180 kts) but up to 3 hours max.
tnx.
What would you use instead?
It seems these days everyone is focused on single engine TPs or jets, but are they actually ecnomical to operate on shorter "Navajo country" routes?
Considering the amount of PA31 type aircraft still in operation there must be a shortage of replacement types. If you were to start with that type of operation today what aircraft type would you select?
What are you using if you replaced your Pipers?
Nope, I don't plan on building an aircraft, but I can't figure out what to use instead of a PA31 for shorter routes and with limited pax, short-ish fields and not all paved. Taxi/charter operation so requires twin engines and flexibility as well as decent speed and load hauling capacity from a variety of airstrips.
Normal flight times in the 1 hour range (at 180 kts) but up to 3 hours max.
tnx.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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From: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Kingair 90 will do the job from unpaved runways of around 900m length - but depends on what kind of payload you're looking to take.
And it'll fly on A1 or AVGAS
- your choice (with a few limitations on long-term AVGAS use).
And it'll fly on A1 or AVGAS
- your choice (with a few limitations on long-term AVGAS use).
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Sweden
I forgot to mention low operating costs as a requirement, but then that doesn't necessarily apply to old banged up PA31s.
90 with Avgas, do you mean the Orenda conversion or is there another?
I don't necessarily want Avgas, I was thinking more along the lines of a diesel PA31 derivative if anyone cares to develop it.
What about costs of running a Kingair 90 versus a Navajo/chieftain - are they actually comparable? I always believed the TPs would be alot more expensive and the Beech in general.
90 with Avgas, do you mean the Orenda conversion or is there another?
I don't necessarily want Avgas, I was thinking more along the lines of a diesel PA31 derivative if anyone cares to develop it.
What about costs of running a Kingair 90 versus a Navajo/chieftain - are they actually comparable? I always believed the TPs would be alot more expensive and the Beech in general.
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: ...FL510
The time for a piston is almost over.
Taxi/charter operation so requires twin engines
Sorry, where it is written?
Except for night flight, I knew the possibility of commercial operation also by using single turbo prop. Almost everywhere in word.
Then, I thought a PC12.
The single turbine running cost is cheaper than any other. Especially if you compare those for a PA31. I knew that it likes AVGAS so much.
Our company were enquiring for a diesel engine for a C404.
The full installation for each engine is gonna cost something like 115K Euro… forget it !!!
Cheers,
M.
Sorry, where it is written?
Except for night flight, I knew the possibility of commercial operation also by using single turbo prop. Almost everywhere in word.
Then, I thought a PC12.
The single turbine running cost is cheaper than any other. Especially if you compare those for a PA31. I knew that it likes AVGAS so much.
Our company were enquiring for a diesel engine for a C404.
The full installation for each engine is gonna cost something like 115K Euro… forget it !!!
Cheers,
M.
Thread Starter
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From: Sweden
Single Engine IFR operations are not allowed in Europe and they probably won't be for a while. As I am located in Sweden that also includes me. There is a local exemption for cargo in the Swedish regs, but they don't apply to pax. We have a few operators using C206 on floats as well as a C208 on floats, but they are strictly VFR day operations.
Doesn't work with taxi/charter....
115000 EUR/engine may be steep but compared to a PC-12 ?? Really, it sounds like a bargain!
Doesn't work with taxi/charter....
115000 EUR/engine may be steep but compared to a PC-12 ?? Really, it sounds like a bargain!
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From: ...FL510
...
Here is the link for the Centurion Diesel Engine: I don’t know if it is suitable also for PA31 and certified by EASA.
Have a look http://www.centurion-engines.com/
In the web page, they are advertising it for EUR 64’800 as selling price.
But that it's just for the engine, nothing else. Then, to replace a old Continental or Lycoming they will charge you for the all necessary modifications as per as the engine mounts, engine system, fuel tanks and fuel system, and so and so. At the time that we have enquired for our T206 they asked EUR 115’000!!! Also they weren’t able to refund the old engine core which was USD 11’000.
Regarding to the single turboprop operation, I didn’t know that JAA were that strictly.
Yeah… you are right that PC 12 is so expensive, also a Caravan (USD 1,9 million). I do not have experience in Europe (I am working in Africa ) but let me tell you that the profit for a turboprop plane is more than double at the end. What about the Caravan II (C406)? You can get a nice one for less than a million dollars and it’s fast.
When we talk about aged planes as PA31 or Cessna 402/404/421, we never know where we are going to, what the maintenance will cost… TBO… calendar over haul and bla bla bla.
However, good luck.
Have a look http://www.centurion-engines.com/
In the web page, they are advertising it for EUR 64’800 as selling price.
But that it's just for the engine, nothing else. Then, to replace a old Continental or Lycoming they will charge you for the all necessary modifications as per as the engine mounts, engine system, fuel tanks and fuel system, and so and so. At the time that we have enquired for our T206 they asked EUR 115’000!!! Also they weren’t able to refund the old engine core which was USD 11’000.
Regarding to the single turboprop operation, I didn’t know that JAA were that strictly.
Yeah… you are right that PC 12 is so expensive, also a Caravan (USD 1,9 million). I do not have experience in Europe (I am working in Africa ) but let me tell you that the profit for a turboprop plane is more than double at the end. What about the Caravan II (C406)? You can get a nice one for less than a million dollars and it’s fast.
When we talk about aged planes as PA31 or Cessna 402/404/421, we never know where we are going to, what the maintenance will cost… TBO… calendar over haul and bla bla bla.
However, good luck.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Sweden
Unfortunately the JAA or EASA countries can't seem to agree on allowing SEIFR, even with proven turbines, it's a mystery... 
Yeah, I've thought about the F406 and it seems to be the only thing out there that fits the profile of the PA31. It's just that turbines seem to cost alot to operate. On the other hand they're reliable and as you say, the Pipers and Cessnas are getting long in the tooth.
It seems to me that there is something missing in the aircraft market - a modern PA31/C401. Perhaps I should get into the aircraft manufacturing business!
Yeah, I've thought about the F406 and it seems to be the only thing out there that fits the profile of the PA31. It's just that turbines seem to cost alot to operate. On the other hand they're reliable and as you say, the Pipers and Cessnas are getting long in the tooth.
It seems to me that there is something missing in the aircraft market - a modern PA31/C401. Perhaps I should get into the aircraft manufacturing business!
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From: Dunno ... what day is it?
deice
It's only a mystery until the engine stops. Then the mist clears slightly.
PT6s do go bang. I have flown passengers on a route that was usually serviced by an aircraft that shredded one - including pax who were on the aircraft when it happened. They were glad of the second engine!
There have been potential replacement modern twin pistons, including diesels (TT62 for example). Unfortunately those I know of have not succeeded. The current core of the market relies on second-hand airframes, due to the cost of purchase of new aircraft. The implications for the future of a poor market for new PA-31-sized twins are an increase in cost in the light charter market in the next 10 years.
It's only a mystery until the engine stops. Then the mist clears slightly.
PT6s do go bang. I have flown passengers on a route that was usually serviced by an aircraft that shredded one - including pax who were on the aircraft when it happened. They were glad of the second engine!
There have been potential replacement modern twin pistons, including diesels (TT62 for example). Unfortunately those I know of have not succeeded. The current core of the market relies on second-hand airframes, due to the cost of purchase of new aircraft. The implications for the future of a poor market for new PA-31-sized twins are an increase in cost in the light charter market in the next 10 years.
Thread Starter
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From: Sweden
LAB, you're right about that, and I'm not really too happy about flying SEIFR in general (IMC in crap weather that is) so I can understand that it's taking some time for Europe to agree on anything.
Are you saying the light charter market will die because new airframes are too expensive? I mean, there must be a limit to how long you want to keep these 20+ yr old planes in the air for commercial operations. Most PA31s and C401/402 types must be 30 yrs old by now.
Does anyone have a typical operating cost for a PA31 versus say a King air? Or better yet, the F406.
/deice
Are you saying the light charter market will die because new airframes are too expensive? I mean, there must be a limit to how long you want to keep these 20+ yr old planes in the air for commercial operations. Most PA31s and C401/402 types must be 30 yrs old by now.
Does anyone have a typical operating cost for a PA31 versus say a King air? Or better yet, the F406.
/deice
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: ...FL510
...
Does anyone have a typical operating cost for a PA31 versus say a King air? Or better yet, the F406 ????
Difficult to say because it depend how many hours per year you are able to fly and also where those are based. I do not have experience for such planes you asked. But if it can help you, our running cost for C404 are USD 690 per hours versus USD 990 of B200. Those are calculated on the same basis and proportionately to effective crew costs, allowance, maintenance, engine and propeller reserves, insurance and liability, revenues, equity and bank loan if there.
Regarding the number of the engine, of course two are better than one, especially in IMC. But <<better one reliable than two unreliable>>.
Guys do not forget that we are talking about of light twins ...very low single engine performance… especially for charter when always we are flying fully load.
Cheers.
Difficult to say because it depend how many hours per year you are able to fly and also where those are based. I do not have experience for such planes you asked. But if it can help you, our running cost for C404 are USD 690 per hours versus USD 990 of B200. Those are calculated on the same basis and proportionately to effective crew costs, allowance, maintenance, engine and propeller reserves, insurance and liability, revenues, equity and bank loan if there.
Regarding the number of the engine, of course two are better than one, especially in IMC. But <<better one reliable than two unreliable>>.
Guys do not forget that we are talking about of light twins ...very low single engine performance… especially for charter when always we are flying fully load.
Cheers.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Constantinople
Interesting article with some (if small) relevance to the subject in general here:
http://www.beechbuyers.com/wiki/BCB/EclipseArticle
http://www.beechbuyers.com/wiki/BCB/EclipseArticle
Thread Starter
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From: Sweden
That was an interesting article to say the least. Even if the author is biased I find it hard to believe it would be so completely out of place that the figures could be reversed. This tells me that there ought to be a market for a light twin PA31 style.
Even though the example N-757PJ provides shows "only" a 300 USD difference I suspect in a sensitive market it could make or break an operation.
I appreciate everyone's input. Taking the Baron price as an example, would it not be possible for someone to market a modern "PA31" for less than a million dollars? Beech isn't known to build anything cheap, but if you can market a twin jet at 1.4 MUSD a light twin without press. cabin should be alot cheaper. And operating costs must be a bargain in comparison. Ok, you'll lose 100 knots perhaps, but on a one-two hours flight double cost wouldn't be worth it, or would it?
The one drawback of light twins is as someone said - miserable SE performance... What to do?
Even though the example N-757PJ provides shows "only" a 300 USD difference I suspect in a sensitive market it could make or break an operation.
I appreciate everyone's input. Taking the Baron price as an example, would it not be possible for someone to market a modern "PA31" for less than a million dollars? Beech isn't known to build anything cheap, but if you can market a twin jet at 1.4 MUSD a light twin without press. cabin should be alot cheaper. And operating costs must be a bargain in comparison. Ok, you'll lose 100 knots perhaps, but on a one-two hours flight double cost wouldn't be worth it, or would it?
The one drawback of light twins is as someone said - miserable SE performance... What to do?
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From: Europa
New Twin Diesel Aeroplane:
If you want to see a truly amazing plane, visit http://www.hp-aircraft.de/edoc/news.html#optimzing to get acquainted with the TT62 and its manufacturer the High Performance Aircraft Company in Germany. The TT62 has 2 Thielert 350 HP V-8's located in-board and actuating, through transmission drives, two propellers positioned where turbojets are in a business jet. It is flying since 2/05, cruises at 240 Knots at 20,000 ft and has a standard range of 1,700 NM consuming around 18Gal./h. (Yes, 18 Gallons…Cessna, Piper and Beech, wake up, here is the future: America to Europe in 3 legs and back with less than 800 gallons of jetfuel.) It will constitute an interesting low cost alternative to the new minibusiness jets popping around everywhere. The other application of the 350HP sofar is a private German STC program for a Beech Duke.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Europa
Hpa Tt62
Last link not active try: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPA_TT62 in german
and: http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/search/phot...nct_entry=true
June 2, 2006:
Germany's High Performance Aircraft (HPA) has scheduled the maiden flight of its rebranded new aircraft for the third quarter of 2007.
The redesigned TT62 Alekto, a piston twin business aircraft, has been rebranded as the Baltic.
Certification is scheduled for 2008 with production set to begin in 2009.
HPA, based in Zirchow, re-evaluated the TT62's design last year. During flight testing it was found that the wash from the rear-fuselage mounted propellors disrupted airflow over the pylons.
The Baltic has adopted a different configuration. The jet-fuelled Thierlert Aircraft Engines Centurion 4.0 turbocharged diesel engines have been moved from the rear fuselage to the wing. In addition the fuselage is now 1.5m shorter at 10.14m.
But HPA stresses that the Baltic cabin can take five passengers - one more than its predecessor. This
is a benefit of the repositioning of the engines.
The Baltic will be able to cruise at a maximum speed of 230kt at 20,000ft. The economic cruise range, with full tanks, will be 3,240km.
HPA was founded on 10 April 2002 by Heiko Teegen at Rostock-Laage airport in Kritzkow.
The project has continued despite the death in August 2003 of Teegen who was HPA's ceo and editor of the aviation magazine "Pilot und Flugzeug".
HPA set out to develop and manufacture a modern twin-engine propeller aircraft that fully meets the demands of today's aviation market.
The result, the TT62 Baltic, will be fitted with two diesel engines and will run on jet A1 fuel. The Baltic is designed to carry five or six passengers at high speed and reasonable cost.
and: http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/search/phot...nct_entry=true
June 2, 2006:
Germany's High Performance Aircraft (HPA) has scheduled the maiden flight of its rebranded new aircraft for the third quarter of 2007.
The redesigned TT62 Alekto, a piston twin business aircraft, has been rebranded as the Baltic.
Certification is scheduled for 2008 with production set to begin in 2009.
HPA, based in Zirchow, re-evaluated the TT62's design last year. During flight testing it was found that the wash from the rear-fuselage mounted propellors disrupted airflow over the pylons.
The Baltic has adopted a different configuration. The jet-fuelled Thierlert Aircraft Engines Centurion 4.0 turbocharged diesel engines have been moved from the rear fuselage to the wing. In addition the fuselage is now 1.5m shorter at 10.14m.
But HPA stresses that the Baltic cabin can take five passengers - one more than its predecessor. This
is a benefit of the repositioning of the engines.
The Baltic will be able to cruise at a maximum speed of 230kt at 20,000ft. The economic cruise range, with full tanks, will be 3,240km.
HPA was founded on 10 April 2002 by Heiko Teegen at Rostock-Laage airport in Kritzkow.
The project has continued despite the death in August 2003 of Teegen who was HPA's ceo and editor of the aviation magazine "Pilot und Flugzeug".
HPA set out to develop and manufacture a modern twin-engine propeller aircraft that fully meets the demands of today's aviation market.
The result, the TT62 Baltic, will be fitted with two diesel engines and will run on jet A1 fuel. The Baltic is designed to carry five or six passengers at high speed and reasonable cost.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Sweden
I followed the development of the Alekto (TT62) for a while but then it seems the company shut its doors:
From Wikipedia: "Die HPA hat im Juli 2006 Insolvenz angemeldet".
I don't really speak or read German but "insolvenz" doesn't sound too great...
Unfortunately the founder and leading man of the company died before the prototype took to the sky, and if I recall correctly the performance and behaviour of the original design, with embedded Thielerts and props on pylons, was so flawed that they decided to scrap it and redraw it - like a modern PA31! A real shame.
I haven't seen anything about it in years.
From Wikipedia: "Die HPA hat im Juli 2006 Insolvenz angemeldet".
I don't really speak or read German but "insolvenz" doesn't sound too great...
Unfortunately the founder and leading man of the company died before the prototype took to the sky, and if I recall correctly the performance and behaviour of the original design, with embedded Thielerts and props on pylons, was so flawed that they decided to scrap it and redraw it - like a modern PA31! A real shame.
I haven't seen anything about it in years.
