Resigned from BA to fly the BBJ !!!
Guest
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The latest news at Farnborough is this,
local planning permission has been granted for TAG to operate EGLF as a centre of exellence for Business Aviation, to start with the number of movements is limited to 28,000 pa, with 2,500 of these being allowed at weekends and ph's, and approximately 1,600 to be in the 50-80 tonnes bracket, i.e. GV, BBJ and ACJ.
Survey work has just been completed reference the fitting of a temporary Glide Path for both runway 07 and 25 and a localiser on runway 07, there is talk of this being operation by autumn 2001.
The hours of operation will not change and will stay at 0700-2200 local times M-F and 0800-2000 on weekends and ph's. A lot of work has already been done in the surrounding areas to clear the path for the full ILS for runway 07, and the local Green lobby are quite keen on the work that has been done as it has returned land to its origianl state of heathland from being forest.
Movement rates are increasing, 31% up on the year to date.
Upgrades of the taxiways and lighting system are the priorities for EGLF followed by the new control tower, hangers and Business aviation terminal.
Hope this info is of some use.
local planning permission has been granted for TAG to operate EGLF as a centre of exellence for Business Aviation, to start with the number of movements is limited to 28,000 pa, with 2,500 of these being allowed at weekends and ph's, and approximately 1,600 to be in the 50-80 tonnes bracket, i.e. GV, BBJ and ACJ.
Survey work has just been completed reference the fitting of a temporary Glide Path for both runway 07 and 25 and a localiser on runway 07, there is talk of this being operation by autumn 2001.
The hours of operation will not change and will stay at 0700-2200 local times M-F and 0800-2000 on weekends and ph's. A lot of work has already been done in the surrounding areas to clear the path for the full ILS for runway 07, and the local Green lobby are quite keen on the work that has been done as it has returned land to its origianl state of heathland from being forest.
Movement rates are increasing, 31% up on the year to date.
Upgrades of the taxiways and lighting system are the priorities for EGLF followed by the new control tower, hangers and Business aviation terminal.
Hope this info is of some use.
Guest
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To all BBJ drivers,
Are you using the Boeing BLT? We are and its superb, the next step for us is a permanent flight deck installation, has your machine got one? If so how was it done? Any ideas most welcome. Thanks.
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'Keep the Stress Down'
Are you using the Boeing BLT? We are and its superb, the next step for us is a permanent flight deck installation, has your machine got one? If so how was it done? Any ideas most welcome. Thanks.
------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi folks,
Lavdumper - Your question Was answered by Joe Ninety
Mutt - Hi Mutt, we do have winglets now and there is a little saving basically we saved 1000 lbs on a 10 hour sector, not much, but hey it looks good. Yes we do use the BLT for performance.
Joe Ninety - The job was advertised in flight mag and a number opf people were interviewed, I must have bought more beers than the others!
SilentHandover - I know who you are now!! Couldnt wave too crappy as you know.
StreesFree - Id like to know how you make the BLT a perm fixture its a good bit of software but a pain in the rear to keep having to fire up the PC.
To all BBJ drivers, do you all fly to Boeing procedures, or do you vary them or what do you do?
Those with winglets does your FMC have the update for the winglets ie does it have the correct stab trim?
Did you know that the addition of winglets is not certified by JARs because the lights on the wingtips do not comply with the regs.
Does anyone use JeppView with a portable handheld handset in the flightdeck without having to print the charts out everytime.
WEll still enjoying it, only 15 days and 12 hours to go before my month off ( only kidding). Looks like Im going to have to write an SOP manual which will be suited for the Private operation but with the experience from the BA days, that could be tricky.
Speak to you soon guys.
Lavdumper - Your question Was answered by Joe Ninety
Mutt - Hi Mutt, we do have winglets now and there is a little saving basically we saved 1000 lbs on a 10 hour sector, not much, but hey it looks good. Yes we do use the BLT for performance.
Joe Ninety - The job was advertised in flight mag and a number opf people were interviewed, I must have bought more beers than the others!
SilentHandover - I know who you are now!! Couldnt wave too crappy as you know.
StreesFree - Id like to know how you make the BLT a perm fixture its a good bit of software but a pain in the rear to keep having to fire up the PC.
To all BBJ drivers, do you all fly to Boeing procedures, or do you vary them or what do you do?
Those with winglets does your FMC have the update for the winglets ie does it have the correct stab trim?
Did you know that the addition of winglets is not certified by JARs because the lights on the wingtips do not comply with the regs.
Does anyone use JeppView with a portable handheld handset in the flightdeck without having to print the charts out everytime.
WEll still enjoying it, only 15 days and 12 hours to go before my month off ( only kidding). Looks like Im going to have to write an SOP manual which will be suited for the Private operation but with the experience from the BA days, that could be tricky.
Speak to you soon guys.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Welcome back BJ,
I thought that the winglets were supposed to offer better savings than that, thanks for letting me know. (Thanks also Inlet Corrosion)
Now to the fun BLT, how can you install this in the cockpit as a permanent device, we looked into this a number
of years ago with the Fedex Takeoff Computer, we were getting into all sorts of certification issues once the device started using the aircrafts power and was a permanent fixture. Have Boeing given you any ideas on this?
What sort of laptop are you using ?
Are you using SITA obstacle data ?
Finally, any idea who owns the 2 Citation Excels parked at Arabasco?
Thanks for the info.
Mutt
I thought that the winglets were supposed to offer better savings than that, thanks for letting me know. (Thanks also Inlet Corrosion)
Now to the fun BLT, how can you install this in the cockpit as a permanent device, we looked into this a number
of years ago with the Fedex Takeoff Computer, we were getting into all sorts of certification issues once the device started using the aircrafts power and was a permanent fixture. Have Boeing given you any ideas on this?
What sort of laptop are you using ?
Are you using SITA obstacle data ?
Finally, any idea who owns the 2 Citation Excels parked at Arabasco?
Thanks for the info.
Mutt
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mutt,
Boeing dont seem to have many ideas about a permanent flight deck installation of the BLT. At the moment we are having to set it up each time its needed, this is at best a drag!!! Its run through a Dell laptop and an HP printer, do you know if it could be printed through the ACARS printer? Boeing promise that full certification for winglets will be done soon. At the moment we are only authorised for CAT 1 but really need CAT 3.
I've not heard about JAR problems with the wingtip lights, what is the problem?
Thanks a lot.
------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'
Boeing dont seem to have many ideas about a permanent flight deck installation of the BLT. At the moment we are having to set it up each time its needed, this is at best a drag!!! Its run through a Dell laptop and an HP printer, do you know if it could be printed through the ACARS printer? Boeing promise that full certification for winglets will be done soon. At the moment we are only authorised for CAT 1 but really need CAT 3.
I've not heard about JAR problems with the wingtip lights, what is the problem?
Thanks a lot.
------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'
Guest
Posts: n/a
StressFree,
I'll start this by saying I have nothing to do with any BBJ's.
As for the BLT, we were given one of the beta versions a number of years ago to play around with, there was talk of using the BLT computation module to supply our ACARS takeoff data. This however never got any further.
I dont know of anyway of connecting your computer output to the ACARS printer, once again you would run into certification problems. However, i would ask why do you need to print it out? As a private operator, are you obliged to keep a record? If so, why dont you just write down the pertinent data?
Fedex did succeed in installing a performance computer in their MD-11's, try having a look in one of those to get some ideas. However you will have problems getting the BLT program certified without the help of Boeing.
I hope that someone else will answer your other questions........
Mutt
[This message has been edited by mutt (edited 13 February 2001).]
I'll start this by saying I have nothing to do with any BBJ's.
As for the BLT, we were given one of the beta versions a number of years ago to play around with, there was talk of using the BLT computation module to supply our ACARS takeoff data. This however never got any further.
I dont know of anyway of connecting your computer output to the ACARS printer, once again you would run into certification problems. However, i would ask why do you need to print it out? As a private operator, are you obliged to keep a record? If so, why dont you just write down the pertinent data?
Fedex did succeed in installing a performance computer in their MD-11's, try having a look in one of those to get some ideas. However you will have problems getting the BLT program certified without the help of Boeing.
I hope that someone else will answer your other questions........
Mutt
[This message has been edited by mutt (edited 13 February 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mutt,
Thanks for your response. Even though we are a private operator we are obliged by the Bermuda DCA to operate to JAR Ops 1 standards and therefore have to have full record-keeping for all flights for audit purposes. As well as this we also have to leave a copy load-sheet at all points of departure. All a bit unnecessary I agree but at the moment unavoidable.
Cheers.
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'Keep the Stress Down'
Thanks for your response. Even though we are a private operator we are obliged by the Bermuda DCA to operate to JAR Ops 1 standards and therefore have to have full record-keeping for all flights for audit purposes. As well as this we also have to leave a copy load-sheet at all points of departure. All a bit unnecessary I agree but at the moment unavoidable.
Cheers.
------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'
Guest
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Blended Winglets,
A BLT is the Boeing Laptop Tool. Its a performance, weight and balance, etc. computer that contains all the data for a BBJ as well as airfield data. It is a supreme piece of kit and a must for BBJ flying.
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'Keep the Stress Down'
A BLT is the Boeing Laptop Tool. Its a performance, weight and balance, etc. computer that contains all the data for a BBJ as well as airfield data. It is a supreme piece of kit and a must for BBJ flying.
------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'
Guest
Posts: n/a
Stress Free et al,
It might be worth talking to someone at Jet Blue. I know they do all their flight planning, perf. data etc. by laptop and indeed have a totally paperless cockpit. From what I understand they don't have hard copies of any paperwork and download the plan/perf etc to base after each sector.
I know VS are looking at going down the same route.
Brgds
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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
It might be worth talking to someone at Jet Blue. I know they do all their flight planning, perf. data etc. by laptop and indeed have a totally paperless cockpit. From what I understand they don't have hard copies of any paperwork and download the plan/perf etc to base after each sector.
I know VS are looking at going down the same route.
Brgds
------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
Guest
Posts: n/a
Some useful info perhaps?
---------------------------------------------
Jet Blue is a domestic airline based at JFK airport, New York. Currently they operate 11 A320 series aircraft with another 81 on order. They have been operating for just over a year.
From the start of operations, Jet Blue adopted a completely new and revolutionary method of operation. This highly original approach to the problems and execution of day-to-day flight operations makes the maximum use of “new technology” and minimum use [although not the elimination] of paper. It is corporate philosophy that prevails from the very top to the shop floor of the company including rostering/crewing, e-ticketing and maintenance.
First Impressions
Jet Blue is a highly professional, efficient, friendly and informal organisation. The offices are modern, clean, bright and tidy; the absence of piles of paper is most evident. To illustrate the informal ethic everyone wears a nametag with his or her Christian name in large bold type: the surname is barely readable. The personal issue laptops are partitioned to give space for the pilot’s own stuff and personalised set-ups are allowed; one pilot had a cartoon dog chasing his mouse pointer around the screen, another an Incredible Hulk screen saver. How would you personalise yours?
Rostering/Bidding/Crewing
The rostering/bidding system [supplied by US based NOVA] is available to the crew via the Internet. They can bid for trips/days off from home, on the road or from crew check-in using their personal laptop. They can also view a “master roster” displayed as a PDF file on the Internet.
Crewing functions, such as trip swaps, are not yet available on the Internet, although they have a working version soon to be activated. At present they use a sophisticated voicemail system that uses voice recognition for identification instead of PIN numbers.
Performance Planning
On each laptop is a copy of the performance program. This is easy to use and very sophisticated. It calculates take-off and landing performance figures based on pilot input [the Jet Blue SOP is for the F/O to do this and then for the data to be checked by the Captain] taking into account weather, windshear, runway surface condition, aircraft load and any MEL or CDL requirements. Once common data had been input it took just a few seconds to calculate all V speeds and flex/de-rates for ALL runways and intersections at JFK. It also provides a gross error check of fuel uplift, warns of illegal combinations from the MEL/CDL and works out C of G and other weight and balance problems. This system is as idiot proof as can be imagined, fully certified and not open to the errors sometimes encountered when interpolating. In real world operations it is often convenient for us to work out performance based on the worst case to cater for sudden requests from ATC to accept an intersection take-off or shorter runway. A genuine advantage with the Jet Blue system is that the program holds all the figures for all the approved runways and can be accessed in seconds ensuring that the most effective de-rate and V speeds are always employed. All calculations are saved to disk and downloaded back to the company next time the laptop is docked.
Flight Operations
I occupied a jump seat on a JFK – Burlington – JFK roundtrip. The only time I witnessed the Captain with a pen in his hand was when he signed the tech-log: Jet Blue are working on making this electronic too. I don’t think the F/O even had a pen! The only paper on the flight deck comprised of the refuelling chit, ACARS printout and the Jepps plates [again, they are working on producing the plates in an electronic format subject to FAA approval]. All the ACARS paper goes in the bin to be recycled once it has been read.
The planning and flight can be summarised as follows.
When the crew check-in they plug in or “dock” their laptops. This action, following a short login sequence, updates all the company manuals, delivers the days flight plans, weather [including satellite images] and NOTAMS. It also copies to them all company e-mail and uploads previously stored performance information back to the company. Crew notices arrive as an e-mail which they read and then reply to as a method of acknowledging receipt. The Jet Blue system architecture allows these actions to be performed at any outstation. The entire process takes a few minutes. The crew then go to the aircraft.
When they enter the flight deck a fairly lengthy ACARS print awaits them. This is essentially a copy of the plan, weather and NOTAMS already in their laptop plus load sheet data, special airport requirements, drift down info, ATIS, a crew list and any other free hand notes. From this printout the Captain types in the route and the F/O does the performance calculations. The whole thing takes a few minutes. The F/O does the walk-round and the Captain signs the tech log. Briefing is done in the normal way and they are ready to go.
Timings for off blocks, take-off, landing and on blocks, plus in-flight reports are all transmitted back to the company automatically by ACARS.
Jet Blue work to a 30 min turnaround. On the ground at Burlington the ACARS sent a complete record of the flight back to the company for filing and then delivered details of the next sector. The Captain typed this in and signed the tech log. The F/O completed the performance calculations, did the walk round and briefed the sector. All pre-flight actions were completed in less than 10 minutes.
Of note is that none of the aircraft carry any books. The library is carried on the pilot’s laptop and [provided they dock it at check-in] all the manuals are entirely up-to-date. Both pilots carry every single company manual, not just the 3 or 4 that we are issued with.
The entire operation was very efficient and stress free.
Conclusion
Jet Blue has a first-class and robust system built from the ground up to make the most of electronic communication technologies. The advantages over a paper-based system are obvious and compelling.
------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
---------------------------------------------
Jet Blue is a domestic airline based at JFK airport, New York. Currently they operate 11 A320 series aircraft with another 81 on order. They have been operating for just over a year.
From the start of operations, Jet Blue adopted a completely new and revolutionary method of operation. This highly original approach to the problems and execution of day-to-day flight operations makes the maximum use of “new technology” and minimum use [although not the elimination] of paper. It is corporate philosophy that prevails from the very top to the shop floor of the company including rostering/crewing, e-ticketing and maintenance.
First Impressions
Jet Blue is a highly professional, efficient, friendly and informal organisation. The offices are modern, clean, bright and tidy; the absence of piles of paper is most evident. To illustrate the informal ethic everyone wears a nametag with his or her Christian name in large bold type: the surname is barely readable. The personal issue laptops are partitioned to give space for the pilot’s own stuff and personalised set-ups are allowed; one pilot had a cartoon dog chasing his mouse pointer around the screen, another an Incredible Hulk screen saver. How would you personalise yours?
Rostering/Bidding/Crewing
The rostering/bidding system [supplied by US based NOVA] is available to the crew via the Internet. They can bid for trips/days off from home, on the road or from crew check-in using their personal laptop. They can also view a “master roster” displayed as a PDF file on the Internet.
Crewing functions, such as trip swaps, are not yet available on the Internet, although they have a working version soon to be activated. At present they use a sophisticated voicemail system that uses voice recognition for identification instead of PIN numbers.
Performance Planning
On each laptop is a copy of the performance program. This is easy to use and very sophisticated. It calculates take-off and landing performance figures based on pilot input [the Jet Blue SOP is for the F/O to do this and then for the data to be checked by the Captain] taking into account weather, windshear, runway surface condition, aircraft load and any MEL or CDL requirements. Once common data had been input it took just a few seconds to calculate all V speeds and flex/de-rates for ALL runways and intersections at JFK. It also provides a gross error check of fuel uplift, warns of illegal combinations from the MEL/CDL and works out C of G and other weight and balance problems. This system is as idiot proof as can be imagined, fully certified and not open to the errors sometimes encountered when interpolating. In real world operations it is often convenient for us to work out performance based on the worst case to cater for sudden requests from ATC to accept an intersection take-off or shorter runway. A genuine advantage with the Jet Blue system is that the program holds all the figures for all the approved runways and can be accessed in seconds ensuring that the most effective de-rate and V speeds are always employed. All calculations are saved to disk and downloaded back to the company next time the laptop is docked.
Flight Operations
I occupied a jump seat on a JFK – Burlington – JFK roundtrip. The only time I witnessed the Captain with a pen in his hand was when he signed the tech-log: Jet Blue are working on making this electronic too. I don’t think the F/O even had a pen! The only paper on the flight deck comprised of the refuelling chit, ACARS printout and the Jepps plates [again, they are working on producing the plates in an electronic format subject to FAA approval]. All the ACARS paper goes in the bin to be recycled once it has been read.
The planning and flight can be summarised as follows.
When the crew check-in they plug in or “dock” their laptops. This action, following a short login sequence, updates all the company manuals, delivers the days flight plans, weather [including satellite images] and NOTAMS. It also copies to them all company e-mail and uploads previously stored performance information back to the company. Crew notices arrive as an e-mail which they read and then reply to as a method of acknowledging receipt. The Jet Blue system architecture allows these actions to be performed at any outstation. The entire process takes a few minutes. The crew then go to the aircraft.
When they enter the flight deck a fairly lengthy ACARS print awaits them. This is essentially a copy of the plan, weather and NOTAMS already in their laptop plus load sheet data, special airport requirements, drift down info, ATIS, a crew list and any other free hand notes. From this printout the Captain types in the route and the F/O does the performance calculations. The whole thing takes a few minutes. The F/O does the walk-round and the Captain signs the tech log. Briefing is done in the normal way and they are ready to go.
Timings for off blocks, take-off, landing and on blocks, plus in-flight reports are all transmitted back to the company automatically by ACARS.
Jet Blue work to a 30 min turnaround. On the ground at Burlington the ACARS sent a complete record of the flight back to the company for filing and then delivered details of the next sector. The Captain typed this in and signed the tech log. The F/O completed the performance calculations, did the walk round and briefed the sector. All pre-flight actions were completed in less than 10 minutes.
Of note is that none of the aircraft carry any books. The library is carried on the pilot’s laptop and [provided they dock it at check-in] all the manuals are entirely up-to-date. Both pilots carry every single company manual, not just the 3 or 4 that we are issued with.
The entire operation was very efficient and stress free.
Conclusion
Jet Blue has a first-class and robust system built from the ground up to make the most of electronic communication technologies. The advantages over a paper-based system are obvious and compelling.
------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm back folks after my first two months on duty and am now settling in for my one month off.
Shanwick, these guys you refer to certainly have put a lot of effort into the paperless operation.
Question: B4 I forget does anyone know who 'Canford Aviation' are? I was walking down the high street in Canford Cliffs and I couldnt believe my eyes, there was a corporate aviation shop in the high street with fractional ownership for a lear in the window for £150,000.
Well heres an update on how I'm finding the new job.
1.Im not having any problems with the permanent standby issue, it is definately one of the things I like about the job. It requires a greater understanding of the aircraft's operational ability, unlike BA where everything is calculated for you.
2. Negotiating with the family is a delicate issue at the moment as everyone gets used to the job, we were very used to palnning things based on my roster, thats the major loss.
3. There is little consideration for the commercial part of the operation. As long as the boss is happy then anything goes. We are lucky however as there is no pressure on us which makes the operation safer than most I suspect. If we say no then no it is with no repercussions.
4. Our operations team that run in the background are brilliant, how do you get a slot into LHR at 8.00am landing on 09R and leave an hour later.If you have a problem you phone them and they fix it. On the odd occasion they cant but hey they do a better job than Big Airways.
5. The biggest and most taxing problem is the difference between operating procedures. BA obviously operate bearing in mind a strict AOC operation and Cadets in right hand seat with as little as 200 hours(very demanding I assure you).That is what I am used to. I did however realise that this would change and that I would have to leave alot of the 'bull****' behind and take on a different outlook. Maybe I underestimated the challenge, I didnt just leave a scheduled airline AOC to go to a corporate AOC operation, but straight to a private operation which operates on its own. The operation up untill I joined was run by two americans and is now managed by a very capable brit, so all three of us are brits. We are in the throws of establishing a set of procedures that suit a private operation. However we all have different ideas. Something that I have noticed is that if you have been flying in the private sector for a long time then you are not constantly checked to make sure that you are oprtaing correctly and many bad habits can easiliy develop. Fortunately I have been flying the B737 for a long time and can maintain a basic level competancy until we establish some common procedures.
I have to say that the Boeing Ops Manual and Flight Crew Procedures contradict themselves on many occasions. It is not enough to fly with them alone.
Overall the job is great and over time this operation could be an extremly slick and professional one when we all fly from the same music sheet.
Any questions just post them, I will reply whenever I can however I'm off to Spain and the Maldives this month, things I could never have done with BA.
Got any questions
Shanwick, these guys you refer to certainly have put a lot of effort into the paperless operation.
Question: B4 I forget does anyone know who 'Canford Aviation' are? I was walking down the high street in Canford Cliffs and I couldnt believe my eyes, there was a corporate aviation shop in the high street with fractional ownership for a lear in the window for £150,000.
Well heres an update on how I'm finding the new job.
1.Im not having any problems with the permanent standby issue, it is definately one of the things I like about the job. It requires a greater understanding of the aircraft's operational ability, unlike BA where everything is calculated for you.
2. Negotiating with the family is a delicate issue at the moment as everyone gets used to the job, we were very used to palnning things based on my roster, thats the major loss.
3. There is little consideration for the commercial part of the operation. As long as the boss is happy then anything goes. We are lucky however as there is no pressure on us which makes the operation safer than most I suspect. If we say no then no it is with no repercussions.
4. Our operations team that run in the background are brilliant, how do you get a slot into LHR at 8.00am landing on 09R and leave an hour later.If you have a problem you phone them and they fix it. On the odd occasion they cant but hey they do a better job than Big Airways.
5. The biggest and most taxing problem is the difference between operating procedures. BA obviously operate bearing in mind a strict AOC operation and Cadets in right hand seat with as little as 200 hours(very demanding I assure you).That is what I am used to. I did however realise that this would change and that I would have to leave alot of the 'bull****' behind and take on a different outlook. Maybe I underestimated the challenge, I didnt just leave a scheduled airline AOC to go to a corporate AOC operation, but straight to a private operation which operates on its own. The operation up untill I joined was run by two americans and is now managed by a very capable brit, so all three of us are brits. We are in the throws of establishing a set of procedures that suit a private operation. However we all have different ideas. Something that I have noticed is that if you have been flying in the private sector for a long time then you are not constantly checked to make sure that you are oprtaing correctly and many bad habits can easiliy develop. Fortunately I have been flying the B737 for a long time and can maintain a basic level competancy until we establish some common procedures.
I have to say that the Boeing Ops Manual and Flight Crew Procedures contradict themselves on many occasions. It is not enough to fly with them alone.
Overall the job is great and over time this operation could be an extremly slick and professional one when we all fly from the same music sheet.
Any questions just post them, I will reply whenever I can however I'm off to Spain and the Maldives this month, things I could never have done with BA.
Got any questions
Guest
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Bobby Johnson.
Can you give me an idea what the total operating cost, per hour, of the BBJ is running? I have read that Twinjet is chartering their Airbus A319CJ for $9300/hr plus $3000/ per landing.Also what kind of Basic Operating Weight do you have?
Would anybody know what a Boeing 737-600,-700 or -800 might be, both weight and operating cost?
Thanks!
Can you give me an idea what the total operating cost, per hour, of the BBJ is running? I have read that Twinjet is chartering their Airbus A319CJ for $9300/hr plus $3000/ per landing.Also what kind of Basic Operating Weight do you have?
Would anybody know what a Boeing 737-600,-700 or -800 might be, both weight and operating cost?
Thanks!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bobby,
Thanks for continuing this topic. There are a number of questions that I would like to discuss.
Are you using an in-house ops department or a commercial one?
I don’t know too much about BA’s SOP’s, but the one that seems to create the most discussion is the idea of both pilots performing various stages of the landing. Is this a procedure that you are hoping to keep? What other procedures do you find strange?
It didn’t take you long to discover that Boeings philosophy is that they “build aircraft and don’t operate them”, their manuals therefore leave a lot to be desired. But I guess having to write things to satisfy the lawyers doesn’t help either.
The new size Boeing manuals are constructed with a program called Framemaker, if you are based where I believe you are, I know a couple of tech writers who might be able to edit your procedures manual for you for a small fee.
Glad to see that you are having fun, drop in for a beer sometime.
Mutt.
[email protected]
Thanks for continuing this topic. There are a number of questions that I would like to discuss.
Are you using an in-house ops department or a commercial one?
I don’t know too much about BA’s SOP’s, but the one that seems to create the most discussion is the idea of both pilots performing various stages of the landing. Is this a procedure that you are hoping to keep? What other procedures do you find strange?
It didn’t take you long to discover that Boeings philosophy is that they “build aircraft and don’t operate them”, their manuals therefore leave a lot to be desired. But I guess having to write things to satisfy the lawyers doesn’t help either.
The new size Boeing manuals are constructed with a program called Framemaker, if you are based where I believe you are, I know a couple of tech writers who might be able to edit your procedures manual for you for a small fee.
Glad to see that you are having fun, drop in for a beer sometime.
Mutt.
[email protected]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi Guys,
Fokkerjet - Im sorry I cant give you this information and it would not be realistic in a charter operation. If the boss wants somethinghe gets it, cost is not always a priority. Im sure others may reply with better figures
Mutt - Beer sounds good send me an email and we'll get together.
We use a commercial company however they are linked in a way to us, they of course are very good.
With regard to BA SOP's and the monitored approach, this is not suitable at this time and is only used in normal operations to keep standrdisation to CAT II/III, so no I will not be suggesting this.
There are too many differences to list, suffice to say I will be rewriting the Ops Man in association with Boeing and will have to get them approved before use. It requires a lot of work and flying to get this right and would be nearly imposible to use a tech writer, but thanks anyway.
Keep the questions coming and I will try to answer them, please appreciate I cannot answer all of them, either because I dont know or I cant say.
Fokkerjet - Im sorry I cant give you this information and it would not be realistic in a charter operation. If the boss wants somethinghe gets it, cost is not always a priority. Im sure others may reply with better figures
Mutt - Beer sounds good send me an email and we'll get together.
We use a commercial company however they are linked in a way to us, they of course are very good.
With regard to BA SOP's and the monitored approach, this is not suitable at this time and is only used in normal operations to keep standrdisation to CAT II/III, so no I will not be suggesting this.
There are too many differences to list, suffice to say I will be rewriting the Ops Man in association with Boeing and will have to get them approved before use. It requires a lot of work and flying to get this right and would be nearly imposible to use a tech writer, but thanks anyway.
Keep the questions coming and I will try to answer them, please appreciate I cannot answer all of them, either because I dont know or I cant say.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The transition from the B737-200/300/400/500 in BA to the BBJW in the Corporate World
Here’s an update on how its all going for those that are interested. Before you can fully appreciate the differences you need to understand what it was like in BA. I no longer work for them so it is a little more frank than you may have read before.
Operating the B737 in BA at Gatwick -
Where do I start? It is a huge company and you are just a number and a five letter code. Many people like this, as they remain transparent and feel they are safer in terms of the management not really knowing who you are. After all your job security is not really down to economic conditions, but more down to whether your face fits. If it doesn’t fit they will go out of the way to make it fit! If you don’t try then you are gone. Anyone with any sense will try to make it fit and most do. What it all means is that if you have any ideas or a way of operating that do not comply with the rules you are made to fit and their methods of doing so can be very painful. There are some very good points about BA that are very often overlooked and sometimes misinterpreted. Many of you will have heard that BA consider Captains as senior managers and put more emphasis on managing a flight rather than the actual flying skills required of you to operate the aircraft. Until you actually try this method you cannot judge it. It really does work. It is probably more appropriate on the more senior fleets in BA where the Co-pilot has plenty of experience, however at Gatwick this is not the case and requires both, it is vital to manage and have a very ‘open and honest’ approach to the flight and have some very good flying skills as the Co-pilots have little experience and if they are not briefed well will lead you down a dead end where you will have to recover from the situation. If this sort of thing happens then the SESMA reporting system sends the flight information directly back to the company, at which point you are invited in for ‘Coffee, Tea No Biscuits’. Well that’s what it feels like. In reality these interviews are handled very well IF you have a good manager as we had at Gatwick (The present Chief Pilot). If you have made a major **** up and you are totally up front and honest they will go out of the way to support you. If you try to cover it up then I can only imagine you would feel the full wrath of BA. The most common conclusion to these interviews comes down to adherence of SOP’s and the cause is mostly due to a lack of briefings. A lot of the time you are very tired because of the early morning starts and the number of sectors you are required to fly (I know its not as bad as British Midland!!) and complacency sets in. You have to try very hard not to let this happen. The bottom line to all this is to have concrete SOP’s and to manage the flight effectively through an open and honest manner with comprehensive briefings so everyone connected to the flight you are doing knows exactly what you are doing.
The Transition -
My last flight with BA was to GOA, the weather was CAVOK and the temptation to drop the gear and do a visual approach was high, however I resisted the temptation for a number of reasons, firstly I hadn’t done this sort of thing on a regular basis since the Dan Air days. Secondly I would have left the Co-pilot cold and way behind the aircraft in effect flying it single pilot. Thirdly it would not have been very sensible and if there had been an emergency during the manoeuvre I would not have had the spare capacity to manage the situation correctly.
I started the new job on the 1st of January 2001 and went into the simulator for two days to convert to the 737-700 flight deck. The major difference here was that apart from the LPC requirements it was up to me what I wanted to do. Great! I learnt so much from the instructor in a short time. On the second day I was in the sim at 0600 and came out at 1000, tired as you can imagine. At this point the first indication of what it was going to be like reared its head. The Chief Pilot phoned me at 1030 and said “ Everything OK?” “ Yep all done” I said “ Great, can you get on a flight down to Marrakech via Casablanca ready to take over”. Well that’s what I did and ended up in Marrakech at about 2300 to meet everyone. The other pilot went home for a well deserved rest and the next day was supposed to be a discussion on how they operate their aircraft, when all of a sudden we were called out to fly Marrakech to Agadir. Well it was a 15 min sector, Jeppesen charts I hadn’t seen since I was 22 years old and Boeing procedures and Checklist with a bit of “well we don’t do it that way we do it this way”. My 14 years on the 737 helped a lot!! I flew with the Chief Pilot, he has a lot of experience in the corporate world and having flown with many Captains over the years was a very capable one.
The next few months was a case of trying to come up with some procedures that we would all be happy with. It was a very steep learning curve!!!
We are now settled into some very good procedures taken from BA and the Corporate World. The combination of the two has provided us with a very efficient safe operation that works. It does not cater for the inexperienced Co-Pilot and a lot of the things that are not appropriate to our operation from the Boeing Checklist such as Papers Aboard have been taken out. These procedures have been devised for the private operator and not the AOC holder. If anyone is interested in these procedures let me know.
Well that’s it so far, my next missive will be on the operational side of the BBJ and how it performs. If you find all this very boring let me know and we will close the thread.
All the best
Bobby Johnson
Here’s an update on how its all going for those that are interested. Before you can fully appreciate the differences you need to understand what it was like in BA. I no longer work for them so it is a little more frank than you may have read before.
Operating the B737 in BA at Gatwick -
Where do I start? It is a huge company and you are just a number and a five letter code. Many people like this, as they remain transparent and feel they are safer in terms of the management not really knowing who you are. After all your job security is not really down to economic conditions, but more down to whether your face fits. If it doesn’t fit they will go out of the way to make it fit! If you don’t try then you are gone. Anyone with any sense will try to make it fit and most do. What it all means is that if you have any ideas or a way of operating that do not comply with the rules you are made to fit and their methods of doing so can be very painful. There are some very good points about BA that are very often overlooked and sometimes misinterpreted. Many of you will have heard that BA consider Captains as senior managers and put more emphasis on managing a flight rather than the actual flying skills required of you to operate the aircraft. Until you actually try this method you cannot judge it. It really does work. It is probably more appropriate on the more senior fleets in BA where the Co-pilot has plenty of experience, however at Gatwick this is not the case and requires both, it is vital to manage and have a very ‘open and honest’ approach to the flight and have some very good flying skills as the Co-pilots have little experience and if they are not briefed well will lead you down a dead end where you will have to recover from the situation. If this sort of thing happens then the SESMA reporting system sends the flight information directly back to the company, at which point you are invited in for ‘Coffee, Tea No Biscuits’. Well that’s what it feels like. In reality these interviews are handled very well IF you have a good manager as we had at Gatwick (The present Chief Pilot). If you have made a major **** up and you are totally up front and honest they will go out of the way to support you. If you try to cover it up then I can only imagine you would feel the full wrath of BA. The most common conclusion to these interviews comes down to adherence of SOP’s and the cause is mostly due to a lack of briefings. A lot of the time you are very tired because of the early morning starts and the number of sectors you are required to fly (I know its not as bad as British Midland!!) and complacency sets in. You have to try very hard not to let this happen. The bottom line to all this is to have concrete SOP’s and to manage the flight effectively through an open and honest manner with comprehensive briefings so everyone connected to the flight you are doing knows exactly what you are doing.
The Transition -
My last flight with BA was to GOA, the weather was CAVOK and the temptation to drop the gear and do a visual approach was high, however I resisted the temptation for a number of reasons, firstly I hadn’t done this sort of thing on a regular basis since the Dan Air days. Secondly I would have left the Co-pilot cold and way behind the aircraft in effect flying it single pilot. Thirdly it would not have been very sensible and if there had been an emergency during the manoeuvre I would not have had the spare capacity to manage the situation correctly.
I started the new job on the 1st of January 2001 and went into the simulator for two days to convert to the 737-700 flight deck. The major difference here was that apart from the LPC requirements it was up to me what I wanted to do. Great! I learnt so much from the instructor in a short time. On the second day I was in the sim at 0600 and came out at 1000, tired as you can imagine. At this point the first indication of what it was going to be like reared its head. The Chief Pilot phoned me at 1030 and said “ Everything OK?” “ Yep all done” I said “ Great, can you get on a flight down to Marrakech via Casablanca ready to take over”. Well that’s what I did and ended up in Marrakech at about 2300 to meet everyone. The other pilot went home for a well deserved rest and the next day was supposed to be a discussion on how they operate their aircraft, when all of a sudden we were called out to fly Marrakech to Agadir. Well it was a 15 min sector, Jeppesen charts I hadn’t seen since I was 22 years old and Boeing procedures and Checklist with a bit of “well we don’t do it that way we do it this way”. My 14 years on the 737 helped a lot!! I flew with the Chief Pilot, he has a lot of experience in the corporate world and having flown with many Captains over the years was a very capable one.
The next few months was a case of trying to come up with some procedures that we would all be happy with. It was a very steep learning curve!!!
We are now settled into some very good procedures taken from BA and the Corporate World. The combination of the two has provided us with a very efficient safe operation that works. It does not cater for the inexperienced Co-Pilot and a lot of the things that are not appropriate to our operation from the Boeing Checklist such as Papers Aboard have been taken out. These procedures have been devised for the private operator and not the AOC holder. If anyone is interested in these procedures let me know.
Well that’s it so far, my next missive will be on the operational side of the BBJ and how it performs. If you find all this very boring let me know and we will close the thread.
All the best
Bobby Johnson
Guest
Posts: n/a
What about the BBJ?
Well since I have been flying the BBJ I have learnt more about the commercial side of the 737 than I ever did in BA, which is one of the reasons why I left. I wanted to learn more about the management of the aircraft having spent so long flying one. If you already fly the BBJ then skip this article it is aimed at those that either want to fly it or buy it. If you do fly it and my information is incorrect then do let me know, Im still learning.
Boeing seem to have come a cross a winner in the BBJ. They set up a separate division to deal with the corporate market, but how could they fail? The BBJ is made up of the wing, undercarriage and engines of the 737-800 with the shorter fuselage of the 737-700 giving the customer a long-range business jet with three times the cabin volume of its smaller competitors, but nearly the same capital and operating costs.
The cost of this aircraft is in the same ball park as the Global and the GV. Why is this? Boeing have made in excess of 3000 737’s, their unit costs on the 737 are low. I understand that the certification of the BBJ took 1 month and 50 hrs flying. An example is that of a windscreen. A BBJ windscreen costs about $7000 as opposed to a learjet windscreen $22000. Whilst Boeing have tried the Corporate market before they have now decided to set up Boeing Business Jets to focus on the Corporate Owner.
It must be said that the BBJ was designed for long haul operations with a wide variety of fuel tank configurations. A compromise with maximum range and baggage capacity is required. With the maximum number of fuel tanks leaves little space for the bags, if you have an owner that takes his house with him on a world trip!
The aircraft normally cruises at high takeoff weights the aircraft normally cruises at 0.79M at FL370 with about 25-2600 lbs per hour per engine reducing to about 2000lbs per hour towards the end of the flight, so flight planning is easy at 5000lbs per hour after a climb to FL 410 its maximum operating altitude.
Watch out on short sectors into small airfields, make sure the runway can cope with the weight because generally the aircraft can cope with the length.
With the introduction of the trendy winglets this means with a max takeoff of 171,000 lbs the aircraft should achieve 6200nm with the eight tank configuration. We had the winglets fitted at Boeing Wichita. The give an aerodynamic performance inprovement of 6% meaning we can climb earlier by about 2000ft giving us more time at altitude hence saving more fuel. It has been difficult to appraise the fuel savings as we do not do anywhere near the number of sectors as an airline operation, but at a cost of $2M it will take some time to recoup the cost, unless of course you are going to sell it when you would recoup the cost in the sale. I doubt you would be able to sell one easiliy without them.
From rough calculations it would appear that the fuel costs are about 35% more than the Global and the GV and with the winglets about 30% more, but that is only a guess.
I’m new at prices as in BA I just used to fly them, however I understand a Green BBJ costs something like $35M and the interior costs anything from $10M -$20M and this is not carried out by Boeing but by about six third party companies, of which I have a list if you need them. I’m not surprised Boeing contracts this out, there are more problems with the cabin than the aircraft, which is extremely reliable considering they are not flown very much.
In short it’s a great aircraft and a dream to fly, better than the old –200’s I used to fly and better performance than the –400’s. After all there are not many aircraft that can go direct to Jeddah from Lasham using all the obstacle data!
If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, when I have time I will produce a website dedicated to the BBJ with forums, technical, performance and anything else you want to see.
Regards
Bobby Johnson
Ps I will soon be a sim instructor, you never know I might need it someday!!
Well since I have been flying the BBJ I have learnt more about the commercial side of the 737 than I ever did in BA, which is one of the reasons why I left. I wanted to learn more about the management of the aircraft having spent so long flying one. If you already fly the BBJ then skip this article it is aimed at those that either want to fly it or buy it. If you do fly it and my information is incorrect then do let me know, Im still learning.
Boeing seem to have come a cross a winner in the BBJ. They set up a separate division to deal with the corporate market, but how could they fail? The BBJ is made up of the wing, undercarriage and engines of the 737-800 with the shorter fuselage of the 737-700 giving the customer a long-range business jet with three times the cabin volume of its smaller competitors, but nearly the same capital and operating costs.
The cost of this aircraft is in the same ball park as the Global and the GV. Why is this? Boeing have made in excess of 3000 737’s, their unit costs on the 737 are low. I understand that the certification of the BBJ took 1 month and 50 hrs flying. An example is that of a windscreen. A BBJ windscreen costs about $7000 as opposed to a learjet windscreen $22000. Whilst Boeing have tried the Corporate market before they have now decided to set up Boeing Business Jets to focus on the Corporate Owner.
It must be said that the BBJ was designed for long haul operations with a wide variety of fuel tank configurations. A compromise with maximum range and baggage capacity is required. With the maximum number of fuel tanks leaves little space for the bags, if you have an owner that takes his house with him on a world trip!
The aircraft normally cruises at high takeoff weights the aircraft normally cruises at 0.79M at FL370 with about 25-2600 lbs per hour per engine reducing to about 2000lbs per hour towards the end of the flight, so flight planning is easy at 5000lbs per hour after a climb to FL 410 its maximum operating altitude.
Watch out on short sectors into small airfields, make sure the runway can cope with the weight because generally the aircraft can cope with the length.
With the introduction of the trendy winglets this means with a max takeoff of 171,000 lbs the aircraft should achieve 6200nm with the eight tank configuration. We had the winglets fitted at Boeing Wichita. The give an aerodynamic performance inprovement of 6% meaning we can climb earlier by about 2000ft giving us more time at altitude hence saving more fuel. It has been difficult to appraise the fuel savings as we do not do anywhere near the number of sectors as an airline operation, but at a cost of $2M it will take some time to recoup the cost, unless of course you are going to sell it when you would recoup the cost in the sale. I doubt you would be able to sell one easiliy without them.
From rough calculations it would appear that the fuel costs are about 35% more than the Global and the GV and with the winglets about 30% more, but that is only a guess.
I’m new at prices as in BA I just used to fly them, however I understand a Green BBJ costs something like $35M and the interior costs anything from $10M -$20M and this is not carried out by Boeing but by about six third party companies, of which I have a list if you need them. I’m not surprised Boeing contracts this out, there are more problems with the cabin than the aircraft, which is extremely reliable considering they are not flown very much.
In short it’s a great aircraft and a dream to fly, better than the old –200’s I used to fly and better performance than the –400’s. After all there are not many aircraft that can go direct to Jeddah from Lasham using all the obstacle data!
If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, when I have time I will produce a website dedicated to the BBJ with forums, technical, performance and anything else you want to see.
Regards
Bobby Johnson
Ps I will soon be a sim instructor, you never know I might need it someday!!