NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
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Mixmaster.
As has already been pointed out though this is not comparing like with like. A new hire in an airline will fly a restricted number of routes none of which (in his/her early days) will be anything other than routine, with the benefit of a safety pilot. There is no room on most of the aircraft in the NJ fleet for a safety pilot. Certainly there will be a base check but people are questioning whether the company will bear the cost of numerous empty flights for training purposes beyond this.
Netjets freely advertise the diversity of their destinations which run into the hundreds. It will take a very special 'new' pilot and experienced training captain to make it work. Not surprisingly some of those within the company who are faced with the task of bringing these people on line are deeply concerned notwithstanding the presence of some excellent people in the training department.
Indeed I think you will find that many of the people posting in this thread are Netjets employees. Perhaps they are in the best position to know whether this is likely to work or not rather than those on the outside who have never experienced the operation first hand?
I am ex-NJE and I have my own opinion. The good news (for me) is I don't care!!
As has already been pointed out though this is not comparing like with like. A new hire in an airline will fly a restricted number of routes none of which (in his/her early days) will be anything other than routine, with the benefit of a safety pilot. There is no room on most of the aircraft in the NJ fleet for a safety pilot. Certainly there will be a base check but people are questioning whether the company will bear the cost of numerous empty flights for training purposes beyond this.
Netjets freely advertise the diversity of their destinations which run into the hundreds. It will take a very special 'new' pilot and experienced training captain to make it work. Not surprisingly some of those within the company who are faced with the task of bringing these people on line are deeply concerned notwithstanding the presence of some excellent people in the training department.
Indeed I think you will find that many of the people posting in this thread are Netjets employees. Perhaps they are in the best position to know whether this is likely to work or not rather than those on the outside who have never experienced the operation first hand?
I am ex-NJE and I have my own opinion. The good news (for me) is I don't care!!
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Flintstone.
I'm not attempting to wholly compare like with like. Assuming Netjets' initally allow passenger-free training flights which in turn allow a safety pilot, I see no reason as to why a NetJets' pilot will take longer to be safety released than an airline pilot. Of course they will have to undergo extensive line training which would fall outside the remit of an airline cadet, but speculation about NetJets' letting a new cadet operate as normal in the RHS without first being safety checked is just that...speculation.
PS. my point was mainly aimed at Space Pig and a few of the other cynics. I say two fingers to the cynics.
I'm not attempting to wholly compare like with like. Assuming Netjets' initally allow passenger-free training flights which in turn allow a safety pilot, I see no reason as to why a NetJets' pilot will take longer to be safety released than an airline pilot. Of course they will have to undergo extensive line training which would fall outside the remit of an airline cadet, but speculation about NetJets' letting a new cadet operate as normal in the RHS without first being safety checked is just that...speculation.
PS. my point was mainly aimed at Space Pig and a few of the other cynics. I say two fingers to the cynics.
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Mixmaster.
Aye, and there's the rub. At the moment new hires are given their type rating course (sim), half a dozen or so circuits with a TRE then go straight into line training with passengers. It is very stressful for both the new pilot (been there) and the line trainer (been there too).
I had days where I met a new hire for the first time on the first day of his first tour and we had 45 minutes to prepare everything (non-APU, non-cabin crew aircraft). Remember, there are no engineers to prepare the aircraft in advance either.
I think the fears the current NJ pilots and trainers have is that the aircraft are just too busy to be put aside for sector training without passengers, it's a luxury they can't afford. Of course its possible this is what the company have in mind but that would be a logistical nightmare.
Anyway, it's all conjecture.
Aussie. Long story
All resolved now though
Aye, and there's the rub. At the moment new hires are given their type rating course (sim), half a dozen or so circuits with a TRE then go straight into line training with passengers. It is very stressful for both the new pilot (been there) and the line trainer (been there too).
I had days where I met a new hire for the first time on the first day of his first tour and we had 45 minutes to prepare everything (non-APU, non-cabin crew aircraft). Remember, there are no engineers to prepare the aircraft in advance either.
I think the fears the current NJ pilots and trainers have is that the aircraft are just too busy to be put aside for sector training without passengers, it's a luxury they can't afford. Of course its possible this is what the company have in mind but that would be a logistical nightmare.
Anyway, it's all conjecture.
Aussie. Long story
All resolved now though
Last edited by Flintstone; 10th Feb 2007 at 18:24.
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Flintstone, I hear you man. Everyone's got to start somewhere. It's encouraging to hear there is some circuit training before new hire's are thrown on the line, contrary to what some are postulating. I read NetJets' are expecting to take delivery of a number of Hawkers and Falcons this year and next so maybe that would ease the burden on aircraft and free up some for training?
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not likely mix master....in desperate need of planes and even more so of crews.
the new planes are needed to stop sell offs and to cope with the new card holders and owners that they are constantly signing up.
the planes will not be sat idle!
the new planes are needed to stop sell offs and to cope with the new card holders and owners that they are constantly signing up.
the planes will not be sat idle!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
The Mixmaster,
After being selected by Netjets and did their type rating course we (there were 4 of us) had to do the obligatory 4-6 circuits with a TRE to get the rating on our licence. That's normal, you get that even with easyJet.
The next time we flew was with our owners. The cadets are allegedly going to do 8 or so approaches without fare paying pax, ie owners. They are going to ferry the aeroplane from Paris to Luton to London City to goodness knows where else with NO pax to get familiar with our more popular destinations. This is a very expensive exercise.
With the new aircraft coming online, there will be little or no spare capacity. There's none now. The hardest part will be persuading the line trainers to stay on as is. Nearly all are exhausted and want out. They are in high demand from other airline and bizjet groups.
Make no mistake, this is not standard airline flying. We do use SOPs and so on to mitigate the differences we face every day. My husband flies for easyJet, his hardest day is a usual day at Netjets.
I would say Taxi2parking is very well aware of the facts and what it's like to work for Netjets. Flintstone is too but he's managed to jump ship. In fact, most of the posters here know exactly what it's like to work for Netjets or for a charter company.
After being selected by Netjets and did their type rating course we (there were 4 of us) had to do the obligatory 4-6 circuits with a TRE to get the rating on our licence. That's normal, you get that even with easyJet.
The next time we flew was with our owners. The cadets are allegedly going to do 8 or so approaches without fare paying pax, ie owners. They are going to ferry the aeroplane from Paris to Luton to London City to goodness knows where else with NO pax to get familiar with our more popular destinations. This is a very expensive exercise.
With the new aircraft coming online, there will be little or no spare capacity. There's none now. The hardest part will be persuading the line trainers to stay on as is. Nearly all are exhausted and want out. They are in high demand from other airline and bizjet groups.
Make no mistake, this is not standard airline flying. We do use SOPs and so on to mitigate the differences we face every day. My husband flies for easyJet, his hardest day is a usual day at Netjets.
I would say Taxi2parking is very well aware of the facts and what it's like to work for Netjets. Flintstone is too but he's managed to jump ship. In fact, most of the posters here know exactly what it's like to work for Netjets or for a charter company.
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Redsnail, apart from the bit about posters here (I did say I was mainly chatting about space pig, apologies if I've offended any NetJets veterans), we're in complete agreement Just because I work with an airline does not mean that I therefore think NetJets is an identical outfit. Far from it!
Just because I work with an airline does not mean that I therefore think NetJets is an identical outfit. Far from it!
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Let's read over the Netjets article in Flight International again:
(said by Robert Dranitzke,business development Director of Netjets)
".....while Netjets Direct entry vacancies continue to be oversubscribed
,we want people who fly with us for the rest their full career.(talking about ab initio guys and girls)We are ensuring we have a continious flow of the best pilots the industry has to offer"
Now that will lead to a few conclusions:
1) There is no shortage of crews with Netjets contrary to what all the pilots working for Netjets are saying, you guys are not overworked due to shortage of crew , you are just whining and don't have the big picture
2)The current crews do not fly with Netjets for the rest of their career, that is fully correct, they leave , being fed up. That's why they need to hire ab-initio's.
3)Current Netjets pilots are not the best the Industry has to offer, that is why the ab initio's come in: they are better pilots
4) Netjets pilots are the best the industry can offer, all other major airlines are just trying, but will never reach the level of the netjets pilot
Just had another read of a Netjets advertisement leaflet in which they claim " the average pilot with Netjets has 7000 flighthours" This means, in order to keep this impressive average, for every ab-initio, they will have to hire a 14000 hour grizzled captain, but hey no problem ,the vacancie continue to be oversubscribed...................
Everything else is just a plane, or was it fool?
(said by Robert Dranitzke,business development Director of Netjets)
".....while Netjets Direct entry vacancies continue to be oversubscribed
,we want people who fly with us for the rest their full career.(talking about ab initio guys and girls)We are ensuring we have a continious flow of the best pilots the industry has to offer"Now that will lead to a few conclusions:
1) There is no shortage of crews with Netjets contrary to what all the pilots working for Netjets are saying, you guys are not overworked due to shortage of crew , you are just whining and don't have the big picture
2)The current crews do not fly with Netjets for the rest of their career, that is fully correct, they leave , being fed up. That's why they need to hire ab-initio's.
3)Current Netjets pilots are not the best the Industry has to offer, that is why the ab initio's come in: they are better pilots
4) Netjets pilots are the best the industry can offer, all other major airlines are just trying, but will never reach the level of the netjets pilot
Just had another read of a Netjets advertisement leaflet in which they claim " the average pilot with Netjets has 7000 flighthours" This means, in order to keep this impressive average, for every ab-initio, they will have to hire a 14000 hour grizzled captain, but hey no problem ,the vacancie continue to be oversubscribed...................
Everything else is just a plane, or was it fool?
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hawkerpilot's double post means one of several things.
1. There's an echo in here...here...here........
2. hawkerpilot simply loves the sound of his own voice and deliberately posted twice.
3. hawkerpilot suffers from a nervous disposition which causes him to hit the key again and again n n n n n n n.
4. Spock was right in chapter 14 of the original Star Trek and there are such things as holes in the space/time continuum munum munum munumunum.
Whatever the explanation he's an extremely perceptive gentleman
1. There's an echo in here...here...here........
2. hawkerpilot simply loves the sound of his own voice and deliberately posted twice.
3. hawkerpilot suffers from a nervous disposition which causes him to hit the key again and again n n n n n n n.
4. Spock was right in chapter 14 of the original Star Trek and there are such things as holes in the space/time continuum munum munum munumunum.
Whatever the explanation he's an extremely perceptive gentleman
Last edited by Flintstone; 11th Feb 2007 at 21:52. Reason: The voices made me do it.
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Cadets for airline like Air France for example are selected on academic back ground plus psycho motor tests which demonstrated they natural gifted habilities to fly and finally a deep psychological profiling..then they will be trained 2 years on basic flying into a dedicated AF school (IAAG) using AF pilots detached to training those guys introducing cockpit discipline, CRM and AF culture then once with 250 h and CPL IR frozen ATPl they are doing a turbine transition course flying the Airbus 310 sim on various approaches of they European sectors in IFR/VFR during 6 months after which they will undergo they A320 type rating at AF training center with AF TRI/TRE then begun they Line training on simulator on the same route they will start to fly on actual aircraft.They will be doing one year of Line Training flying mainly all routes of the Europeans AF network during all that time they will be pay 1200 euros a months and after final Line Check they will be joining the AF salary grid for the rest of they aviation carreer.
Netjets program is fundamentaly different for a task far more difficult than flying schedule and start by who is going to delivered the training...I don t want to be greedy but we had already problems releasing instructors from Oxford that have been hire by Netjets and flight safety will do the type rating
so what kind of background those Oxford instructors will have, with the amount of work in the UK only remains the one who will be not able to get a airline job I m afraid! knowing that we had more than 1500 h ATPL guys who came back with a PIC check from FSI and did not know how to change the mode of the FGD or even program the FMS! I wonder about were is the safety net about quality control of the training before we get them in winter flying 3 of 4 legs in low vis wx into CIS or former estern europe countries !
Finally the Cadets will pay for they training and will joint the company on the same pay scale that the FO coming with background, experiences, hours and ATPL
Netjets program is fundamentaly different for a task far more difficult than flying schedule and start by who is going to delivered the training...I don t want to be greedy but we had already problems releasing instructors from Oxford that have been hire by Netjets and flight safety will do the type rating
so what kind of background those Oxford instructors will have, with the amount of work in the UK only remains the one who will be not able to get a airline job I m afraid! knowing that we had more than 1500 h ATPL guys who came back with a PIC check from FSI and did not know how to change the mode of the FGD or even program the FMS! I wonder about were is the safety net about quality control of the training before we get them in winter flying 3 of 4 legs in low vis wx into CIS or former estern europe countries ! Finally the Cadets will pay for they training and will joint the company on the same pay scale that the FO coming with background, experiences, hours and ATPL
Last edited by falconbis; 12th Feb 2007 at 10:36.
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Falconbis, thank you for your post - very interesting.
It sounds as though Air France has a selection and training process very similar to the Royal Air Force.
Take the smartest people that are available (as I recall, the RAF was screening 20,000 qualified applicants each year to fill 100- 150 pilot slots).
Then ensure that the basic and advanced training that is received is from full time, former frontline pilots who instruct for the Central Flying School.
The move them onto a front line aircraft after another lengthy, intensive course.
Assuming success along the way the new pilot is assigned to a Squadron where he will only fly less intensive flights (as he is Limited Combat Ready) but with experienced crewmembers (Combat Ready).
This is a proven, safe and progressive.
The NetJets model is none of these - I think NetJets has started something that is fundamentally unsafe.
Lever
It sounds as though Air France has a selection and training process very similar to the Royal Air Force.
Take the smartest people that are available (as I recall, the RAF was screening 20,000 qualified applicants each year to fill 100- 150 pilot slots).
Then ensure that the basic and advanced training that is received is from full time, former frontline pilots who instruct for the Central Flying School.
The move them onto a front line aircraft after another lengthy, intensive course.
Assuming success along the way the new pilot is assigned to a Squadron where he will only fly less intensive flights (as he is Limited Combat Ready) but with experienced crewmembers (Combat Ready).
This is a proven, safe and progressive.
The NetJets model is none of these - I think NetJets has started something that is fundamentally unsafe.
Lever
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"hawkerpilot's double post means one of several things."
.....
Hi Flintstone, do not know what happened,perhaps an unsteady hand!
maybe because I am no longer "the best of what the industry has to offer",
I am no longer flying with the "best of the best", like yourself
haven't reached 7000 hrs either, wonder who compensated for me over all those years with the best of the best to get to average of 7000 hrs?
Was it you?? then the average must have really dropped since you left: but not to worry, the applicationfiles are oversubscribed......
For sure are two things: when you and me left they lost two linetrainers, and I am much happier and better off(and I presume you to but I cannot speak for you)
take care
HP
".....
Hi Flintstone, do not know what happened,perhaps an unsteady hand!
maybe because I am no longer "the best of what the industry has to offer",
I am no longer flying with the "best of the best", like yourself
haven't reached 7000 hrs either, wonder who compensated for me over all those years with the best of the best to get to average of 7000 hrs?
Was it you?? then the average must have really dropped since you left: but not to worry, the applicationfiles are oversubscribed......
For sure are two things: when you and me left they lost two linetrainers, and I am much happier and better off(and I presume you to but I cannot speak for you)
take care
HP
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PS. my point was mainly aimed at Space Pig and a few of the other cynics. I say two fingers to the cynics.(MIXMASTER)
Mr space pig for you mixmaster, you pretend to be mr BIGmaster from your righthandseat, but have no clue what is going on in NJE. As Flintstone pointed out, most of us are current or ex-NJE employees so we DO know what is going on. You say cynic, in NJE we are known as realists. This is how life is on our side. Forget the fancy advertisements in the FLight Intern., as if YOU can pick your choice of falcon or G5 and have a bit of fun. It all comes at a price, and for many this turns out to be more than they are willing to pay, so they leave. NJE still tries to the outside world to keep up appearances with showing a life seen through pink spectacles, but once you have signed up you regret every bit of it.
perhaps next time it would be best to show some manners, but then again, perhaps it is your age...
Mr space pig for you mixmaster, you pretend to be mr BIGmaster from your righthandseat, but have no clue what is going on in NJE. As Flintstone pointed out, most of us are current or ex-NJE employees so we DO know what is going on. You say cynic, in NJE we are known as realists. This is how life is on our side. Forget the fancy advertisements in the FLight Intern., as if YOU can pick your choice of falcon or G5 and have a bit of fun. It all comes at a price, and for many this turns out to be more than they are willing to pay, so they leave. NJE still tries to the outside world to keep up appearances with showing a life seen through pink spectacles, but once you have signed up you regret every bit of it.
perhaps next time it would be best to show some manners, but then again, perhaps it is your age...
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No barista. space pig is not right. You just agree with him/her
And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.
And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.