Citation VII pro and cons

[His dudeness]

I only do have the XLS numbers on hand, XL is slightly less agile especially at altitude ( the engine have 5 % more thrust at altitude)...maybe someone else can provide the Excel numbers?


T/O Distances

Max T/OM / 15 flaps (XLS)vs 20 flaps (650-VII) / 15°C 20200 vs 23000
XLS 650-VII
SL: 3560 5120

3000ft: 4040 6010

6000ft: 5140 unable

2000 under MTOM (18000 vs 21000)

SL: 2960 4480

3000ft: 3350 5080

6000ft: 4120 6270

Landing DIST UNFACTORED in ft

MLW 18700 vs 20000 Vref 117 vs 130
SL: 3180 2920

3000ft: 3450 3200

6000ft 3800 3540

3000 under MLW Vref 109 vs 121 (16000lbs vs. 17000lbs)

SL: 2850 2550

3000ft: 3160 2790

6000ft: 3400 3060

Cruise / FF at Max weight for FL / ISA condition
High Speed cruise KTAS
Time to climb (cruise climb)
FL 350
435 / 1533 Vs 469 / 1881
14 min / 17 min
FL390
431 / 1359 vs 452 / 1550
17 min / 22 min
FL410
428 / 1278 vs 436 / 1392
20 min / 27 min
FL430
417 / 1172 vs 435 / 1265 (max cruise weight @FL 20000lbs)
23 min / 37 min
F450
399 / 1082 vs 436 / 1153 (max cruise weight @FL 18000lbs)
29 min / 130 min

A few weights:
XLS
MTOM 20200
MLM 18700
MZFM 15100
Max tailcone baggage weight 700

650-VII

MTOM 23000
MLM 20000
MZFM 16500
Max tailcone baggage weight 417

Sources: XLS AFM / OM 650-VII FSI Performance section

I would buy a Excel, but thats just my opinion...the higher capitel costs of the XL will equal the higher operating costs of the 650-VII and if you look at investments one will have to do (say avionics RNP-1 as example) I´d prefer to do that on a newer airplane. Resale value will be better on the Excel also.

Mnd you, I´m just a pilot, not an investments specialist.

[CMN]

That's just what I needed. Good stuff, much appreciated!
Wow the VII eats up alot of asphalt on MTOw compared to the XLS. Is the Excel far from those figures?
So if you can disregard the lower cruising speed (10-35 kts) i guess the XLS (Excel?) is a winner. Who needs those extra knots...

Is TBO higher on the PW engines than on the TFE731?

Then there's the range - Excel I've read gives you around 1800 NM with reserves. Can anyone confirm this?

To the guy who started this thread; Did you buy a VII ??!?

[oceanpilot]

Thank You But..................

To the guy who started this thread; Did you buy a VII ??!?
No, we did not buy a C650 yet, but we are still looking.
Not really in a hurry as we have a nearly new small tube citation and this will be a second aircraft not a substitute.

But we want more comfort for the pax.
We need an APU on the ground for A/C.
1.74 stand up cabin is better than what we have now.
The toilet is serviceable from outside!
We can have a side facing seat and a galley. (for a stewardess, they are little here in Asia J

Been reading this thread with great interest, as we are considering a C-VII to complement a C-II. Hope you do not buy our one ! :-)
We are doing airtaxi/charter out of northern Europe.
If I were based in Europe it probably would be an Excel, but we operate in Asia.

The aircraft has the same cabin as the Excel and costs 20% more to fuel
In the end Fuel is cheap, 0.7$/L
and maintain, the good news is you can buy a 1990 with a spz8000 digital autopilot system for less than 4.8 mill,
2-3M$ less to an Excel, this interest rate covers a lot of maintenance.
the very good news is that it will always cruise at 8.0 to 8.2.
We need speed and range, a VII VI or III has a little more of both than the Excel.

The main thing is, is there an obvious alternative to the Cessna in the $5.5m to $6.5m (preowned) market?
The one that sticks out to me is the IAI-1125/G100 Astra.

There's got to be a Hawker in that price range, right?

And for all the other recommendations, in the end it has to be a Cessna for service considerations.

Wow the VII eats up alot of asphalt on MTOw compared to the XLS.
Runway length is not an issue if you have plenty. And we have in Asia.

Have you looked into a used CE-750?
Yes, but out of bud-jet J at the moment.
A CE-650 can have big maintenance costs.
I do not think a X is cheaper to maintain, quite the opposite.

If you have more let me know.

I hope I answered to most and thanks again.