Chain of Responsibility in Aerial Ag
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Chain of Responsibility in Aerial Ag
Whats everyones perception on who's responsible for outcomes from Aerial Ag activities that are either favourable or adverse and (disregarding legislation for this) what action would shift responsibility from Pilot to Operator and from Operator to Pilot?
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That is a tough one to answer, CRUZN.
P in C can mean very little for some, unfortunately.
Input on load size, Go/no go decisions, servicability are often no business of the line pilot. (in my experience)
Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".
That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.
P in C can mean very little for some, unfortunately.
Input on load size, Go/no go decisions, servicability are often no business of the line pilot. (in my experience)
Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".
That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.
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It is a tough one I'll grant you that Currawong, I do believe though as a pilot with a reasonable amount of experience if a no-go situation develops and a decision is made by either party then thats the end of the discussion. Each party has to deal with different factors and all of them are relevant to a satisfactory outcome otherwise 'professionalism' becomes questionable.
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Originally Posted by M18bloke
They are the ones that make all the money, we mere pilots do as we are told.
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The hand that worketh the spray lever recieveth the rewards.
If it don't feel right don't do it, if you go ahead and do it regardless, maybe you should pick up your chegues with the other hand to help you sleep at night.
If it don't feel right don't do it, if you go ahead and do it regardless, maybe you should pick up your chegues with the other hand to help you sleep at night.
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Had this very discussion (concerning drift issues) with a few local pilots and operators the other night and whereas I was of the opinion it was shared responsibility between pilot/operator/grower apparently under the terms of strict liability the pilot still can be left holding the can.
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Input on load size, Go/no go decisions, servicability are often no business of the line pilot. (in my experience)
Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".
That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.
Thats right Currawong, responsibility may well lie at the top, but if you have more experience than your cheif pilot on particular aircraft types you possibily should be advising him on the load size, if you know the local area, chemicals in question, drift matters ect you should be advising your operations manager on go nogo decisions. Surely if servicability is a question should you not call CASA on one of those anonymous call lines, your life and your fellow pilots rely on this call.
Sounds like you would be better of buying your own operation then "pilot error" would not even come into it.
Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".
That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.
Thats right Currawong, responsibility may well lie at the top, but if you have more experience than your cheif pilot on particular aircraft types you possibily should be advising him on the load size, if you know the local area, chemicals in question, drift matters ect you should be advising your operations manager on go nogo decisions. Surely if servicability is a question should you not call CASA on one of those anonymous call lines, your life and your fellow pilots rely on this call.
Sounds like you would be better of buying your own operation then "pilot error" would not even come into it.
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Come on Rowen. In an ideal world, I would agree with you.
But not all operators are prepared to accept the experience or the advice of others.
Example - "Boss, the prop is throwing red oil everywhere"
Reply - "Should be good for another 50 hours"
Example- "Boss, last time we worked there with this wind there was a complaint"
Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"
etc etc etc
I left that job
On anonymous call lines. I know someone that used one. Within 24 hrs the employer had been tipped off and the bloke sacked.
Other than that, I totally agree with you.
But not all operators are prepared to accept the experience or the advice of others.
Example - "Boss, the prop is throwing red oil everywhere"
Reply - "Should be good for another 50 hours"
Example- "Boss, last time we worked there with this wind there was a complaint"
Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"
etc etc etc
I left that job
On anonymous call lines. I know someone that used one. Within 24 hrs the employer had been tipped off and the bloke sacked.
Other than that, I totally agree with you.
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[Example- "Boss, last time we worked there with this wind there was a complaint"
Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"
etc etc etc
Currawong, this is exactly the problem that plagues our industry, you knew that the job had hairs on it yet you didn't stand your ground...would standing your ground been a better result than the 'phone call?'
Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"
etc etc etc
Currawong, this is exactly the problem that plagues our industry, you knew that the job had hairs on it yet you didn't stand your ground...would standing your ground been a better result than the 'phone call?'
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In a word, yes.
It was however clear with that employer that following orders = continued employment.
I don't have to worry about that stuff now
But you can bet there is someone somewhere in the same position, that cannot get a better job in a hurry because they can only log 1/3 of their flying time, that cannot make a stand because they need the job.
Maybe this will help. I hope so.
It was however clear with that employer that following orders = continued employment.
I don't have to worry about that stuff now
But you can bet there is someone somewhere in the same position, that cannot get a better job in a hurry because they can only log 1/3 of their flying time, that cannot make a stand because they need the job.
Maybe this will help. I hope so.
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Pilots are at the pointy end of both public perception and safety. The pilot makes the final decision as to what happens to the power and spray levers.
The decisions that he makes though depend on factors ranging from company operating procedures to company culture to personality and personal stressors.
With the exception of personal issues that a pilot may wish to keep to himself, all of these factors are heavily influenced by the operator/ management.
It's the operators responsibility to have systems in place which support the pilots decision making process so that errors aren't made.
Every operator should have a sign on his desk to remind both himself and his crew, "The Buck Stops Here".
The decisions that he makes though depend on factors ranging from company operating procedures to company culture to personality and personal stressors.
With the exception of personal issues that a pilot may wish to keep to himself, all of these factors are heavily influenced by the operator/ management.
It's the operators responsibility to have systems in place which support the pilots decision making process so that errors aren't made.
Every operator should have a sign on his desk to remind both himself and his crew, "The Buck Stops Here".
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I think the main point is being missed.
The client/ bug checker/ agent books a job in and should add conditions with a map for the job if any.
Air ag operator/management decide if it's safe to continue or conditions need imposing.
Next pilot decides if it's safe/ possible or will need to wait till conditions are right.
When it goes wrong, all should be liable in different ways and amounts according to problem and where it went wrong.
Responsibility starts at the farmer/ client.
A paper trail should be kept for this reason!
The client/ bug checker/ agent books a job in and should add conditions with a map for the job if any.
Air ag operator/management decide if it's safe to continue or conditions need imposing.
Next pilot decides if it's safe/ possible or will need to wait till conditions are right.
When it goes wrong, all should be liable in different ways and amounts according to problem and where it went wrong.
Responsibility starts at the farmer/ client.
A paper trail should be kept for this reason!
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Client, Agronomist, Agent, Your Boss.................. At the end of the day, it is you as PIC, who has the final say as to whether the job is go/no go.
Not happy? Dont strap yourself in!
Not happy? Dont strap yourself in!
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I take it you have never been told by a client that the feild down wind is 1. ready to be defoiliated, 2. not a suseptable crop or 3. weeds and it wont matter if it's drifted and later find out this was not the case??
How many aircraft have been trashed because a pilot has gone back to land with a full load becuase he was not given all the information?
Ever tried landing an 802 with a full can knowing locking a wheel to keep it straight usualy means blowing a tyre??
Some states have equal resposibility for farmer/agent/agronomist/ operator with a smaller fine for pilot.
If all states did this, it would make saying no easier and harder for a client to push an unsafe job.
How many aircraft have been trashed because a pilot has gone back to land with a full load becuase he was not given all the information?
Ever tried landing an 802 with a full can knowing locking a wheel to keep it straight usualy means blowing a tyre??
Some states have equal resposibility for farmer/agent/agronomist/ operator with a smaller fine for pilot.
If all states did this, it would make saying no easier and harder for a client to push an unsafe job.
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Mr Biggles,
Unfortunately you assume wrong my friend. I have been lied to and tricked on more than one occasion. My point was that we dont need to succumb to pressures from boss/client etc if we feel the job in front of us is on the riskier side of the ledger.
You can only research a job so much before taking that first load, sometimes we gotta land with a can.
Unfortunately you assume wrong my friend. I have been lied to and tricked on more than one occasion. My point was that we dont need to succumb to pressures from boss/client etc if we feel the job in front of us is on the riskier side of the ledger.
You can only research a job so much before taking that first load, sometimes we gotta land with a can.