ETOPS For Dummies
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ETOPS For Dummies and NetJets
Hi, would someone be able to explain how (if at all) ETOPS affects air taxi, corporate and private flights?
For example a flight to the Caribbean, I guess if it was a Falcon 900 with 3 engines ETOPS doesn’t apply? What about twin jets that have the legs to make it one hit, say an GV or Global or maybe a Challenger 604 (would that make it one?
I am a bit ignorant about ETOPS, it wasn’t something that was explored to deeply at pilot scool
and to be honest I didn’t ever think I would be flying anything that would need to comply.
Thanks in advance for any info.
For example a flight to the Caribbean, I guess if it was a Falcon 900 with 3 engines ETOPS doesn’t apply? What about twin jets that have the legs to make it one hit, say an GV or Global or maybe a Challenger 604 (would that make it one?
I am a bit ignorant about ETOPS, it wasn’t something that was explored to deeply at pilot scool
and to be honest I didn’t ever think I would be flying anything that would need to comply.Thanks in advance for any info.
Last edited by MrKipling; 27th Nov 2005 at 08:10.
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What country is the aircraft registered in? Are you required to follow ETOPS regulations?
Under the FAR's we operate our part 121 aircraft using AC120-42A, but our part 91 aircraft do not operate under the same rules.
Mutt
Under the FAR's we operate our part 121 aircraft using AC120-42A, but our part 91 aircraft do not operate under the same rules.
Mutt
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I'm in the uk. So its more European rules that apply to me I guess.
I am pretty sure if its a private flight you can do what you like after all there are no fare paying pax.
I am trying to find the rules in print but strugling. There can't be that many operators (non airline) who do such flights as charters. Net Jets do flights to and from caribean as can Tag and Privatair. Would these companies have to have ETOPS certification?
I am pretty sure if its a private flight you can do what you like after all there are no fare paying pax.
I am trying to find the rules in print but strugling. There can't be that many operators (non airline) who do such flights as charters. Net Jets do flights to and from caribean as can Tag and Privatair. Would these companies have to have ETOPS certification?
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Hi Mr. Kipling,
Private flights have no restrictions; so UK based N, VP-C, and VP-B aircraft do as they please.
For machines on the JAA registers, if it is a charter then JAR-OPS 1 applies. Under this, three engined aircraft like the falcon 50 & 900 have no restrictions, but two engined aircraft have to be within 2 hours single engine flying time of a suitable alternate. In theory there is provision for extending this to three hours, but the requirements are not specified and I don't know of anyone managing to apply this.
To answer your original question, this means that you can't go the great circle route to the Caribbean on a charter, as you are a long way from any where in the middle. Even to get across the short crossing further up, you have to route further North than the (normal) ideal track in order to be within 2 hours of Narsarsuaq. You then get to the can of worms as to whether NastyWack is a suitable diversion for a GulfChalExpress with an engine out...
Private flights have no restrictions; so UK based N, VP-C, and VP-B aircraft do as they please.
For machines on the JAA registers, if it is a charter then JAR-OPS 1 applies. Under this, three engined aircraft like the falcon 50 & 900 have no restrictions, but two engined aircraft have to be within 2 hours single engine flying time of a suitable alternate. In theory there is provision for extending this to three hours, but the requirements are not specified and I don't know of anyone managing to apply this.
To answer your original question, this means that you can't go the great circle route to the Caribbean on a charter, as you are a long way from any where in the middle. Even to get across the short crossing further up, you have to route further North than the (normal) ideal track in order to be within 2 hours of Narsarsuaq. You then get to the can of worms as to whether NastyWack is a suitable diversion for a GulfChalExpress with an engine out...
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thanks for that Jock, this topic of conversation arose over a few beers one night and there were various opinions about what you could and couldn't do.
A colleague was convinced that etops didn't apply to non scheduled traffic simply because Net Jets advertised direct one way trips to the Caribbean. I always thought that they could do that because they use 'N' reg. G V. However I understand they are now doing this flight in the CS (Portuguese?) reg. aircraft. So obviously there is either a loophole or no need for non schedule traffic to have ETOPS?
Surely if NetJets can do it other operators of the same aircraft must be doing it too? Or am I missing the point?
A colleague was convinced that etops didn't apply to non scheduled traffic simply because Net Jets advertised direct one way trips to the Caribbean. I always thought that they could do that because they use 'N' reg. G V. However I understand they are now doing this flight in the CS (Portuguese?) reg. aircraft. So obviously there is either a loophole or no need for non schedule traffic to have ETOPS?
Surely if NetJets can do it other operators of the same aircraft must be doing it too? Or am I missing the point?
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Net Jets? What doing something wrong, perish the thought! 
Surely they aren't going "General Aviation" over the Atlantic, no, surely not? That would be unfair to the other operators who try to do things by the book.
Or to compete is everyone doing the same thing, maybe ETOPS is irrelevant (irreverent
) 
Are there any European based charter outfits with ETOPS in place?
Anyhow who in their right mind would want to go all that way with just 2 engines
I wouldn\'t, I want at least 4 with 3 spares a large boat in tow and some dusky maidens to share the remote paradise island with if all 7 donk\'s quit
Surely they aren't going "General Aviation" over the Atlantic, no, surely not? That would be unfair to the other operators who try to do things by the book.
Or to compete is everyone doing the same thing, maybe ETOPS is irrelevant (irreverent
) Are there any European based charter outfits with ETOPS in place?
Anyhow who in their right mind would want to go all that way with just 2 engines
I wouldn\'t, I want at least 4 with 3 spares a large boat in tow and some dusky maidens to share the remote paradise island with if all 7 donk\'s quit
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The two hour rule for small twins (less than 19 seats) was only introduced into JAR-OPS a couple of years ago. Before that there was no restriction even for commercial ops. If Netjets are going direct to the Caribbean, it may be that the Portuguese have not yet brought their national rules into line with this bit (JAR-OPS is at present only an agreement to align national rules); or they may have allowed NetJets the three hour facility. That would allow a GIV to get straight across.
To go back to one of your original questions, a 604 would need a tech stop in the Azores for the shorter route, or Gander/Goose for the two hour rule. The salesman will try and tell you otherwise, but their figures are based on straight range with no contingencies!
To go back to one of your original questions, a 604 would need a tech stop in the Azores for the shorter route, or Gander/Goose for the two hour rule. The salesman will try and tell you otherwise, but their figures are based on straight range with no contingencies!
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Having now done a bit of surfing around and research on the Net it seems that Privatair decided to go with the BBJ because it comes with ETOPS out of the factory.
I also read that Netjets in the US were kicking against the FAA when it was sugested that ETOPS might be required at some stage for them.
I also read that Netjets in the US were kicking against the FAA when it was sugested that ETOPS might be required at some stage for them.
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I found this site is good for showing ETOPS areas overlayed on a map: http://gc.kls2.com/
The 'ETOPS' link in the page above has some good background info on ETOPS too.
The 'ETOPS' link in the page above has some good background info on ETOPS too.
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With regard to aircraft with three or more engines
JAR-OPS 1.585 basically states that an aeroplane having three or more engines shall not be operated more than 90 minutes (at all engines operating, long range cruising speed) from a suitable landing aerodrome unless it can be shown that from any point beyond 90 minutes from such an aerodrome it is able to continue to that aerodrome with two engines inoperative.
Up to a couple of years ago (when I lost interest in pursuing the matter) Dassault were unable/unwilling to produce two-engine-out cruise performance data for their F50/F900 products and so it follows that for them for public transport purposes the 90 minute limitation applies.
JAR-OPS 1.585 basically states that an aeroplane having three or more engines shall not be operated more than 90 minutes (at all engines operating, long range cruising speed) from a suitable landing aerodrome unless it can be shown that from any point beyond 90 minutes from such an aerodrome it is able to continue to that aerodrome with two engines inoperative.
Up to a couple of years ago (when I lost interest in pursuing the matter) Dassault were unable/unwilling to produce two-engine-out cruise performance data for their F50/F900 products and so it follows that for them for public transport purposes the 90 minute limitation applies.
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All interesting stuff.
It explains why NJE are going general aviation as it is phrased over to the atlantic; they cant legally do it public transport.
Or am I missing something?
If someone has a share does the flight need to be public transport?
It explains why NJE are going general aviation as it is phrased over to the atlantic; they cant legally do it public transport.
Or am I missing something?
If someone has a share does the flight need to be public transport?
