Ag-pilots working on Safety Inititives and would appreciate some input.
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Ag-pilots working on Safety Initiatives and would appreciate some input.
AAAA's are convening a meeting next month to consider effective strategies to improve the Australian Ag industry safety statistics.
Unfortunately we'll only have a handful of people sitting down to discuss this rather than the roomful the problem deserves so I'd be really interested in any ideas that any of you might have that we can throw onto the table at the meeting.
Cheers,
Don
Unfortunately we'll only have a handful of people sitting down to discuss this rather than the roomful the problem deserves so I'd be really interested in any ideas that any of you might have that we can throw onto the table at the meeting.
Cheers,
Don
Last edited by Lowlevldevl; 10th Aug 2005 at 00:22.
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Hey DD
Thanks for that. At the moment however it'll just be a committee comprised of board members.
Even if no-one has any solutions right now, what do you think the problems are?
One suggestion I got today was that since young pilots don't get to start their careers spreading Super anymore we've lost some of our finer skills re: controlling overloaded aircraft at the point of stall in the hills.
Personally I think thats probably a fair comment. Anything else?
Cheers,
Don
Thanks for that. At the moment however it'll just be a committee comprised of board members.
Even if no-one has any solutions right now, what do you think the problems are?
One suggestion I got today was that since young pilots don't get to start their careers spreading Super anymore we've lost some of our finer skills re: controlling overloaded aircraft at the point of stall in the hills.
Personally I think thats probably a fair comment. Anything else?
Cheers,
Don
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Not sticking kids in Turbines at 1000 hours.
Not employing people with not much expirence so you can pay them crap, you would have thought the insurance companies would have sorted this one out.
Need more expirenced blokes training/ checking passing on tips. The chief pilot sending sprogs out to do the easy blocks instead of keeping all the cream work for himself.
Maybe self regulation (depending on who would be doing the regulating) so we could spend more time actually working and doing other things instead of paperwork and "compliance".
If things stay the same with CASA, getting people who actually know and can contribute to the AG side, maybe the same bloke could do all AG? instead of different regions and a hundred different blokes who couldn't care about anything but paperwork and dotted T's.
Not employing people with not much expirence so you can pay them crap, you would have thought the insurance companies would have sorted this one out.
Need more expirenced blokes training/ checking passing on tips. The chief pilot sending sprogs out to do the easy blocks instead of keeping all the cream work for himself.
Maybe self regulation (depending on who would be doing the regulating) so we could spend more time actually working and doing other things instead of paperwork and "compliance".
If things stay the same with CASA, getting people who actually know and can contribute to the AG side, maybe the same bloke could do all AG? instead of different regions and a hundred different blokes who couldn't care about anything but paperwork and dotted T's.
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Come on Cecil, there are "kids" flying turbines faster than ours with a lot less than 1000 hours.
Agree with your chief pilot plug though.
Know of a couple of youngsters relatively recently that have stacked on their first hop.
Obviously somebody overestimated their ability and set them something too hard.
As for the "experienced" ones that run out of fuel or forget where the dump handle is (or put themselves in a position to need it) what can I say?
Agree with your chief pilot plug though.
Know of a couple of youngsters relatively recently that have stacked on their first hop.
Obviously somebody overestimated their ability and set them something too hard.
As for the "experienced" ones that run out of fuel or forget where the dump handle is (or put themselves in a position to need it) what can I say?
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Super Cec
re para 4 and self regulation/administration.
heard a rumour that someone in the aviation safety forum had been pushing to use AAAA as the first of type for self regulation/self administration.
last meeting Phil wasn't available and wasn't sure if he would talk to the ASF next week.
AAAA are loosing the opportunity! Someone in AAAA needs to make sure either Phil or the president turns up at next weeks ASF meeting.
The Eye
heard a rumour that someone in the aviation safety forum had been pushing to use AAAA as the first of type for self regulation/self administration.
last meeting Phil wasn't available and wasn't sure if he would talk to the ASF next week.
AAAA are loosing the opportunity! Someone in AAAA needs to make sure either Phil or the president turns up at next weeks ASF meeting.
The Eye
Currawong, what can you say?
How about nothing? Currawong, do you have anything productive to say or are you just going to take cheap shots at someone trying to make a difference? I have not yet heard you say anything that is of any help to anyone. As for me, I think that check and training is the answer to a positive safety environment whereas your negative, non-productive attitude is a type of person we are trying to address in this safety forum!
Last edited by Sir HC; 11th Aug 2005 at 07:30.
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You lost me HC, if there is a cheap shot there it was not intentional.
If the description comes close to someone here it also wasn't intentional.
I agree check and training is good.
Just as I reckon sending a brand new Ag 2 out in an aircraft with a disabled stall warning device is bad, yet common.
Disclaimer - no cheap shots were intentionally added to this post.
PS Cecil, you are right, everybody makes mistakes. Some people seem to crash a lot though.
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This thread could still go somewhere useful.
Sir HC, perhaps you would like to expand a little. What sort of check and training? Is current training inadequate? It could be something worth looking at.
There will always be some element of risk in this caper. For my money, unforced errors are the ones that really grate.
Sir HC, perhaps you would like to expand a little. What sort of check and training? Is current training inadequate? It could be something worth looking at.
There will always be some element of risk in this caper. For my money, unforced errors are the ones that really grate.
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I have posted some comments regarding this subject on the AG 2 thread.
Most ag pilots can fly alright if they got through the training and got a seat but can they think safely. I am not saying we shouldn't do more check and training however that will mostly tidy up their flying and spraying technique, but how much safer will it make them fly.
I think we need to have at least bi-annual safety courses that teach people mental techniques to stay safe and reduce their exposure to risk. If nothing else it will promote a culture of safe thinking.
I was suprised many years ago to find a highly experienced 502 pilot never used to watch his flap go down, he'd just hit the button for a second or two. As everyone knows Air Tractor flap motors fail all the time, so what happens the day he really needs flap (which is everyday in an AT) and doesn't realise he hasn't got any until its too late. If he hadn't thought of it how many others haven't.
If we can teach people to get into the habit of saying "what if" to themselves more they should be safer.
Most ag pilots can fly alright if they got through the training and got a seat but can they think safely. I am not saying we shouldn't do more check and training however that will mostly tidy up their flying and spraying technique, but how much safer will it make them fly.
I think we need to have at least bi-annual safety courses that teach people mental techniques to stay safe and reduce their exposure to risk. If nothing else it will promote a culture of safe thinking.
I was suprised many years ago to find a highly experienced 502 pilot never used to watch his flap go down, he'd just hit the button for a second or two. As everyone knows Air Tractor flap motors fail all the time, so what happens the day he really needs flap (which is everyday in an AT) and doesn't realise he hasn't got any until its too late. If he hadn't thought of it how many others haven't.
If we can teach people to get into the habit of saying "what if" to themselves more they should be safer.
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The biggest problem I see is the lack of training done throughout an AG Pilots career.
There is a lot of talk of companies doing in house training days and going over dumping proceedures. Anyone out there doing this yet?
Shouldn't we be doing more check & training? I know we are not the airlines and you will all jump on me for suggestting we be a little more like them, however I can't see that it would hurt.
Our industry is doing something wrong - look at all the accidents over the last few years.
Anyone with any better idea
PTSP!
There is a lot of talk of companies doing in house training days and going over dumping proceedures. Anyone out there doing this yet?
Shouldn't we be doing more check & training? I know we are not the airlines and you will all jump on me for suggestting we be a little more like them, however I can't see that it would hurt.
Our industry is doing something wrong - look at all the accidents over the last few years.
Anyone with any better idea
PTSP!
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If you're at full power, pushing it through the temp and/or torque limits at the last minute is not going to save you. For an operator to suggest it is just dumb.
If the engine is so buggered that you can't get full torque at max ITT you probably shouldn't be flying it, if only for the benefit of the dumb operators hip pocket.
Your not going to win with this boss, you're doomed which ever way you go. I bet he's winging like crazy about insurance premiums too. Doesn't encourage safe practices does it?
Tell the OP's manager to get #$!^ed. They have no business determining load sizes.
This post now makes no sense (if you hadn't realised already) to the last post as the post it relates to no longer exists. It is unfortunate that this pilot felt he had to remove what he had posted, as it illlustrated the fact that some operators still don't take safety seriously. I am not going to say what he posted as he obviously feels he can be identified by the situations he described. Maybe his boss is on the AAAA board Don and you scared him off. Needless to say there needs to be a lot more eduction and cultural change.
If the engine is so buggered that you can't get full torque at max ITT you probably shouldn't be flying it, if only for the benefit of the dumb operators hip pocket.
Your not going to win with this boss, you're doomed which ever way you go. I bet he's winging like crazy about insurance premiums too. Doesn't encourage safe practices does it?
Tell the OP's manager to get #$!^ed. They have no business determining load sizes.
This post now makes no sense (if you hadn't realised already) to the last post as the post it relates to no longer exists. It is unfortunate that this pilot felt he had to remove what he had posted, as it illlustrated the fact that some operators still don't take safety seriously. I am not going to say what he posted as he obviously feels he can be identified by the situations he described. Maybe his boss is on the AAAA board Don and you scared him off. Needless to say there needs to be a lot more eduction and cultural change.
Last edited by Turboman; 19th Aug 2005 at 08:28.
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Thanks everbody for your opinions and suggestions here. I'll make sure this entire thread is printed and presented at the meeting in September. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend as I'd hoped. I'll be in Sumatra spraying cane.
At the expense of sounding dumb (There are no dumb questions, only dumb people)
I'd like to know what you think about a couple of ideas.
1. As recurrent check & training appears to be the focus of most of these posts. Would there be any merit to the suggestion that AAAA's buys/ leases/ whatever a dedicated dual controlled Ag-aircraft, kitted out with decent GPS equipment and dispersal gear. Say a GA-200 or similar, to be available to accredited training schools for both initial training as well as bi-annual check-rides. Or are the Cessna 180/185's we currently use good enough? There used to be a number of dual control Pawnees being used for training. Anybody still got one?
2. There is talk about doing something with a simulator. Some of the AAAA's board will be investigating this option in Melbourne. Anybody have experience with sims?
3. Some sectors of the trucking industry use back to base telemetry to monitor just what their drivers are doing on the road. How would you feel about the boss being able to watch your engine parameters, GPS position etc; while you're out on the job? (I've been flying a helicopter this week that has this equipment and it hasn't bothered me)
My ideas are probably too impractical, too expensive and unpopular to see the light of day but now you know what they are.
Anybody else got some ideas? Even if they're not practical they might trigger some that are in somebody elses mind.
At the expense of sounding dumb (There are no dumb questions, only dumb people)
I'd like to know what you think about a couple of ideas.
1. As recurrent check & training appears to be the focus of most of these posts. Would there be any merit to the suggestion that AAAA's buys/ leases/ whatever a dedicated dual controlled Ag-aircraft, kitted out with decent GPS equipment and dispersal gear. Say a GA-200 or similar, to be available to accredited training schools for both initial training as well as bi-annual check-rides. Or are the Cessna 180/185's we currently use good enough? There used to be a number of dual control Pawnees being used for training. Anybody still got one?
2. There is talk about doing something with a simulator. Some of the AAAA's board will be investigating this option in Melbourne. Anybody have experience with sims?
3. Some sectors of the trucking industry use back to base telemetry to monitor just what their drivers are doing on the road. How would you feel about the boss being able to watch your engine parameters, GPS position etc; while you're out on the job? (I've been flying a helicopter this week that has this equipment and it hasn't bothered me)
My ideas are probably too impractical, too expensive and unpopular to see the light of day but now you know what they are.
Anybody else got some ideas? Even if they're not practical they might trigger some that are in somebody elses mind.
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All valid points LLD, the current BFR regime is mostly meaningless to ag people.
C-180, C-185 are pretty dissimilar to what 99% of us operate now.
I worry that if someone needs to be told crashing is bad, they are probably beyond help.
C-180, C-185 are pretty dissimilar to what 99% of us operate now.
I worry that if someone needs to be told crashing is bad, they are probably beyond help.
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OK Don, in reply to your last post,
1. Bi-annuals for ag pilots who only fly ag, by flying instructors who have nothing to do with ag don't really achieve a lot, we all know this. Ag training schools have all got their own training aircraft, I don't think they need AAAA members to to finance another one for them. As I have said before, I am not against ag check and training, but I think it will do little more than what GPS data logging and random visual checks from the ground can already do. Even so an ag pilots bi-annual should be more indepth than a normal commercial pilots. An instrument rated pilot, like an ag pilot has spent 40 hrs on a rating. The instrument pilot has to do a check each year which is quite intensive, the ag pilot doesn't ever have to do a check again relating to his rating (after supervision and 13 monthly check).
2. I have had no experience with ag sims. It could be good if there is someone competent operating it and throwing realistic scenarios at the pilot. Maybe part of an ag annual/bi-annual or pilot safety course.
3. Good idea, but to expensive at this stage I think, even non real time. Would be good to flush out the cowboys.
We can instigate the first point fairly easily as an industry. I'm sure (but not certain) we don't need CASA approval to conduct our own flight check on behalf of AAAA/QBE/Vero. We have already had a very successful program of safety courses, surely we can get them going again fairly quickly. It all depends on whether the operators are now prepared to pay for them, instead of insurance premiums.
1. Bi-annuals for ag pilots who only fly ag, by flying instructors who have nothing to do with ag don't really achieve a lot, we all know this. Ag training schools have all got their own training aircraft, I don't think they need AAAA members to to finance another one for them. As I have said before, I am not against ag check and training, but I think it will do little more than what GPS data logging and random visual checks from the ground can already do. Even so an ag pilots bi-annual should be more indepth than a normal commercial pilots. An instrument rated pilot, like an ag pilot has spent 40 hrs on a rating. The instrument pilot has to do a check each year which is quite intensive, the ag pilot doesn't ever have to do a check again relating to his rating (after supervision and 13 monthly check).
2. I have had no experience with ag sims. It could be good if there is someone competent operating it and throwing realistic scenarios at the pilot. Maybe part of an ag annual/bi-annual or pilot safety course.
3. Good idea, but to expensive at this stage I think, even non real time. Would be good to flush out the cowboys.
We can instigate the first point fairly easily as an industry. I'm sure (but not certain) we don't need CASA approval to conduct our own flight check on behalf of AAAA/QBE/Vero. We have already had a very successful program of safety courses, surely we can get them going again fairly quickly. It all depends on whether the operators are now prepared to pay for them, instead of insurance premiums.
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"the ag pilot doesn't ever have to do a check again relating to his rating (after supervision and 13 monthly check)."
What about AG 1, Turbine endorsmet(s) and night ag raiting?
What about AG 1, Turbine endorsmet(s) and night ag raiting?
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An ag specific BFR would be ok, as we have to do a BFR anyway, might as well make it something relevant.
Perhaps a "defensive driving" course for those perceived as being "at risk"?
By at risk I mean folks with a regular habit of bending metal. For many that run incident free for long periods or entire careers it would probably be a waste of time.
Perhaps a "defensive driving" course for those perceived as being "at risk"?
By at risk I mean folks with a regular habit of bending metal. For many that run incident free for long periods or entire careers it would probably be a waste of time.