Getting into Business Jets
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Getting into Business Jets
What is the best way for a UK pilot (low houred ATPL) to get into Biz Jets?
Is it possible to work Stateside?
Is it possible to work Stateside?
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I don't know if they are still doing this, but an outfit called "American Air Network" in St. Louis (PM me for more info if you like) would arrange visas and place overseas pilots such as yourself in various Biz jets around the country. The way it works is that you pay for a block of time in the aircraft and you are basically doing an internship to gain your experince. You will pay a fair amount up front, but it is a good shortcut for someone with low hours to get in the door. A few years back, about 3 of my FO's came from this outfit and i've stayed in touch with 2 of them; one is a captain on a Westwind now and the other is right seat on a GV, so I guess it can work.
(Russian Gynegology)
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Its still better than sit home and hope the miracle to happen. At least you are building up some proper experience in the real world. Not only eating your dad's savings. I guess that there will be very few bizjet jobs available for the fellows with 200hrs prop time only.
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Paying to be an F/O ??? Nonsense !!
I can accept the idea of paying for a type rating, but giving money to get a right seat position is just the worst thing to do
Think about it : Does your plumber pay to fix your shower ?
It's just that kind of attitudes which ruins the aviation lifestyle.
If F/O's are ready to pay for flying ... why should operators hire the others ?
Low houred CPL should consider other means to build their experience : instruction, aerial work, glider towing ... Air taxi, and then Turbine or Jet . It gives a valuable experience, build aviation common sense , and you can even be paid for that
If at 200 Hrs TT, you don't want to get across those steps and you think you can pay to avoid that ... It's a bit sad. Maybe you should consider another career
I can accept the idea of paying for a type rating, but giving money to get a right seat position is just the worst thing to do
Think about it : Does your plumber pay to fix your shower ?
It's just that kind of attitudes which ruins the aviation lifestyle.
If F/O's are ready to pay for flying ... why should operators hire the others ?
Low houred CPL should consider other means to build their experience : instruction, aerial work, glider towing ... Air taxi, and then Turbine or Jet . It gives a valuable experience, build aviation common sense , and you can even be paid for that
If at 200 Hrs TT, you don't want to get across those steps and you think you can pay to avoid that ... It's a bit sad. Maybe you should consider another career
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PorcoRosso,
Interesting view...not too helpful though.
I never said I wanted to take a short cut.
I have left a very good job, invested all of MY hard-earned money and worked bloody hard to get where I am now.
At this point I am looking for advice from people with experience regarding which avenue I should head down next.
I wish people would think before preaching
Jetstarter and Astra, your help is most appreciated, thank you
Interesting view...not too helpful though.
If at 200 Hrs TT, you don't want to get across those steps and you think you can pay to avoid that ... It's a bit sad. Maybe you should consider another career
I have left a very good job, invested all of MY hard-earned money and worked bloody hard to get where I am now.
At this point I am looking for advice from people with experience regarding which avenue I should head down next.
I wish people would think before preaching
Jetstarter and Astra, your help is most appreciated, thank you
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I have left a very good job, invested all of MY hard-earned money and worked bloody hard to get where I am now.
I know very well your story mate, mine is more or less the same.
I am not in a brand new shiny Business Jet cockpit yet, am 34 with 1800 TT ... flying a Kingair for a business man presently (started with a Seneca ) and I make far less money than 12 years ago when I was an "Homer Simpson" in the Nuclear Industry.
Am sure, you are expecting a nice pilot job, nice income and good lifestyle ... these things won't happen if you enter the system by paying an operator to allow you being in the cockpit . It should be the other way !!!
4 years ago, I was also considering this option .... How glad I am, not to have chosen it.
Do you really think that 500 Hrs TT with half of it as F/O on a Lear will give you a real chance to get a full time position in a business jet ?
Actually, you may , with some luck. But I still think you can make better use of your money.
You may fly for free, from time to time, as P2 with a rich owner of a Seneca or King, but please, don't waste your money in building hours in a business jet cockpit.
the other issue, if you do that, is that you may be asked later, in an interview how you did get that experience .... and the truth may not please .
Be aware that some recruiters (who are pilots ) consider this kind of "experience" like prostitution ....
Am sure you will be able to make your way trough this world. It's a tough way, I agree, don't make it harder for yourself.
Cheers
ZbV
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Paying for a job
Like the man said. Better that and build some hours in good equipment than sit home on Dad's money and a few hundred hours of jet time could give you an advantage over competition.
I know a lot of fellows that have gone that way. All are now flying for airlines in and around Europe. A few have said that without the jet time they would not have been hired.
Still using common sense is actually encouraged: Do not just throw a lump of money to a broker. Look at different types of aircraft, could be an airliner as well even a turbo prop.
Better still, rather than paying to fly, try to get a job and make money in the process.
I know that not everyone can just jump and just go and work anywhere.
But if you are in that position send your CV everywhere, start from the rock bottom and work them to better companies. Singles, multis, turbo props, jets...
I know a lot of fellows that have gone that way. All are now flying for airlines in and around Europe. A few have said that without the jet time they would not have been hired.
Still using common sense is actually encouraged: Do not just throw a lump of money to a broker. Look at different types of aircraft, could be an airliner as well even a turbo prop.
Better still, rather than paying to fly, try to get a job and make money in the process.
I know that not everyone can just jump and just go and work anywhere.
But if you are in that position send your CV everywhere, start from the rock bottom and work them to better companies. Singles, multis, turbo props, jets...
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Thanks for the advice PorcoRosso
As you know it seems like a minefield out there and any advice is welcome right now.
As for
I wish I was fortunate enough to have Dad's money...but at the moment I don't even have any of my own left.
HG
As you know it seems like a minefield out there and any advice is welcome right now.
As for
sit home on Dad's money and a few hundred hours of jet time could give you an advantage over competition.
HG
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Some comments on paying for training / time:
I was in Handsprings position a few years back, having spent 10 years working on aquiring my ratings and building my hours while working 75 hours a week to suport my family and pay for my flight lessons. After this hard work and sacrifice I found myself with a commercial multi engine certificate and an instructors certificate with instrument and multi engine ratings along with about 800 hours total and about 120 hrs multi.
I showed my face and resume (CV) to every charter operator in the LA area with no luck. I was able to get a job as a flight instructor and after 6 months I had aquired enough total and multi engine time to get a job flying C402's over the grand canyon which in turn led to an F/O job on a westwind. All of these jobs were low paying but after another year I made captain on the westwind and finally started to make decent money.
It was as a captain on the westwind that I flew with overseas F/O's who had paid for their time, most of whom had between 600 and 1500 hours. When I heard how they had paid their way in, I had to admit that if I had been aware of the opportunity a few years previous and had the money, (Which I didn't) I would have deffinitely taken it.
Being able to pay for a position only gets you in the door, you still have to prove yourself. I recall one fellow I flew with who had the flight talent of a penguin, needless to say, despite his money he didn't last long. As I mentioned in my original post, two other fellows had some talent and worked very hard and were able to turn their investments into successfull careers.
More recently I found that our aircraft was being sold and decided I wanted to make the step up to the larger Gulfstream. Getting into a Gulfstream I have discovered is much like getting into your first jet; you can only get a jet job if you have jet time, but you have to have a jet job to get jet time.
I decided that I would make my own opportunities and pay for my own Gulfstream type in order to get my foot in the door.
Fortunately I was offered a position in an older Gulfstream, so I won't have to pay my own money and I'm off to Gulfstream school in March at someone else's expense.
I have been fortunate and have not had to pay for my jet time or type ratings, I did have to pay for all my certifcates (Except my ATP) and some 120 hours or so of multi engine piston time.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
The question is what are you willing to do in order to be prepared.
You may not want to spend your own money for a future employer's benefit, but you can bet that others will, it may not be fair or right, but it's just the way it is.
I wish the best of luck to both those who are willing to spend as well as those that are not.
I was in Handsprings position a few years back, having spent 10 years working on aquiring my ratings and building my hours while working 75 hours a week to suport my family and pay for my flight lessons. After this hard work and sacrifice I found myself with a commercial multi engine certificate and an instructors certificate with instrument and multi engine ratings along with about 800 hours total and about 120 hrs multi.
I showed my face and resume (CV) to every charter operator in the LA area with no luck. I was able to get a job as a flight instructor and after 6 months I had aquired enough total and multi engine time to get a job flying C402's over the grand canyon which in turn led to an F/O job on a westwind. All of these jobs were low paying but after another year I made captain on the westwind and finally started to make decent money.
It was as a captain on the westwind that I flew with overseas F/O's who had paid for their time, most of whom had between 600 and 1500 hours. When I heard how they had paid their way in, I had to admit that if I had been aware of the opportunity a few years previous and had the money, (Which I didn't) I would have deffinitely taken it.
Being able to pay for a position only gets you in the door, you still have to prove yourself. I recall one fellow I flew with who had the flight talent of a penguin, needless to say, despite his money he didn't last long. As I mentioned in my original post, two other fellows had some talent and worked very hard and were able to turn their investments into successfull careers.
More recently I found that our aircraft was being sold and decided I wanted to make the step up to the larger Gulfstream. Getting into a Gulfstream I have discovered is much like getting into your first jet; you can only get a jet job if you have jet time, but you have to have a jet job to get jet time.
I decided that I would make my own opportunities and pay for my own Gulfstream type in order to get my foot in the door.
Fortunately I was offered a position in an older Gulfstream, so I won't have to pay my own money and I'm off to Gulfstream school in March at someone else's expense.
I have been fortunate and have not had to pay for my jet time or type ratings, I did have to pay for all my certifcates (Except my ATP) and some 120 hours or so of multi engine piston time.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
The question is what are you willing to do in order to be prepared.
You may not want to spend your own money for a future employer's benefit, but you can bet that others will, it may not be fair or right, but it's just the way it is.
I wish the best of luck to both those who are willing to spend as well as those that are not.
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Handspring:
I am a corporate pilot in the states flying an Excel and can relate to your plight. I am British married to an american so can legally work in the US. Not sure if you are English or US but that is something you may want to consider before you try and fly stateside. Have you thought about NetJets europe? I hear they are hiring and are a good company.
Best of luck
I am a corporate pilot in the states flying an Excel and can relate to your plight. I am British married to an american so can legally work in the US. Not sure if you are English or US but that is something you may want to consider before you try and fly stateside. Have you thought about NetJets europe? I hear they are hiring and are a good company.
Best of luck
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The Other Side,
You are right, but it may take some doing to get that door open. Lets face it, it is be easier to get a job with airlines than with a well established corporate flight department. Also it requires different personality with great flexibility to be able to enjoy it.
Good luck for everyone but your chances are greatly improved if you hold ATPL and some jet time.
Margarita
You are right, but it may take some doing to get that door open. Lets face it, it is be easier to get a job with airlines than with a well established corporate flight department. Also it requires different personality with great flexibility to be able to enjoy it.
Good luck for everyone but your chances are greatly improved if you hold ATPL and some jet time.
Margarita
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If you need to build time, there are a few regional airlines in the U.S. that are hiring fairly low time people.
Get your ATP minimums and get the rating. Since you started in business aviation, a brief fling with the airlines won't hurt your job chances when you go back to business aviation.
Paying for a seat is like being a prostitute--you may only do it once but you'll carry it with you the rest of your life.
Good luck.TC
Get your ATP minimums and get the rating. Since you started in business aviation, a brief fling with the airlines won't hurt your job chances when you go back to business aviation.
Paying for a seat is like being a prostitute--you may only do it once but you'll carry it with you the rest of your life.
Good luck.TC
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At this point I would like to pitch in with my opinion. I am the GV FO that AstraDriver is refering to and he also happens to be a good friend of mine since flying with him.
Paying for my time was with out a doubt the best thing I did for my flying career. I am looking at the big picture and I have personallly put alot of money into my career to get to the top (getting there). I paid for my time and two ratings and in the past year it has really started to pay off with money and life style.
I can say that investing into my career has brought far better returns than the stock market and I worked bloody hard in London for three years which helped pay for the time in the first place.
I would recommend to anyone if they are able to get the money together go for it because you will make your money back and lets face it there is alot of competition and you need every advantage you can get.
Yes I know that people will say you should n't pay for time and types but lets not forget in flying people assess your time, type and total.
Paying for my time was with out a doubt the best thing I did for my flying career. I am looking at the big picture and I have personallly put alot of money into my career to get to the top (getting there). I paid for my time and two ratings and in the past year it has really started to pay off with money and life style.
I can say that investing into my career has brought far better returns than the stock market and I worked bloody hard in London for three years which helped pay for the time in the first place.
I would recommend to anyone if they are able to get the money together go for it because you will make your money back and lets face it there is alot of competition and you need every advantage you can get.
Yes I know that people will say you should n't pay for time and types but lets not forget in flying people assess your time, type and total.
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Again,
Thanks for your input. I am now seeing the bigger picture and seeing all sides of the arguements.
PilotBear, I do have a JAR ATPL with MCC but no commercial experience as yet. 767, thanks for the heads up on ASG.
HG
Thanks for your input. I am now seeing the bigger picture and seeing all sides of the arguements.
PilotBear, I do have a JAR ATPL with MCC but no commercial experience as yet. 767, thanks for the heads up on ASG.
HG
