My next guess is CSA.
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Iraqi airways Baghdad / SXF / LHR day 6
possibly using a HS Trident ? LOT also flew WAW/SXF/LHR but may have made stop in AMS Using IL18 I used the flt in late 60's from AMS/LHR. Lance Shippey |
Flight SXF / Ulaanbataar was IF580. started
I believe Summer 1971. not sure of routing... Thanks for your info on the IF600 via MOW. Lance Shippey |
I remember Mongolian Airlines serving Mongolia-Schönefeld with their 727 later in the eighties. Their pilots had pretty impressive long winter uniform overcoats.
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LS has got it; the other flight was indeed once-weekly on an Iraqi Airways Trident, operating Baghdad-Istanbul-Prague-Berlin SXF-London LHR. Iraqi had been a somewhat unusual purchaser of some of the few Trident 1s that were built for export, they carried on from their earlier Viscounts. Bit of an extraordinary flight though. I wonder how many actually boarded it at Schonefeld to go to London. The scheduled time was much faster than LOT posted on their IL-18 turboprop.
ia70-3.jpg (1106×1267) (timetableimages.com) |
The Lot IL18 I recall on the AMS/LHR sector had
around 14 pax on board. It was as smoky inside as it was outside, with a thick exhaust from the Ivchenko engines. The guy sitting behind me was American, and amazed that free drinks were being offered. I flew in recent years with Eurolot on an ATR (not my favourite a.c.) and found LOT very acceptable, and cabin staff very polite and professional. L.S. |
LOT was permitted to use the center corridor on the way west from Schönefeld but Iraqi? They must have gone north via Trent VOR, Rügen island via the Baltic Sea, North Sea to the UK and down south towards EGLL.
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Dear WHBM.
Did you find any information about Interflug IF580 SXF/ULN Summer 1971, which the CIA reported not showing in the ABC or AOG world guides ? Was it showing in their DDR Timetable ? I found the CIA Library reports on Interflug DDR Aviation, and SXF very accurate apart from the report on the crash of Baade 152 DM-ZYA on 4th March 1959 at 13.55hrs 5 miles from Dresden. There were around 20 a/c in production ordered by Deutsche Lufthansa Ost, which became Interflug when the production was cancelled, and IF having no option but buy the TU134. The Aviation Safety Network page reports problem with fuel flow. This appears to me, to have been a problem that could have been rectified after the loss of DM-DYA, and drastic action to stop the production of this beautiful aircraft. Re. The Lot IL18 SXF/LHR. Do you have the routing of this flight and the times of Dep from SXF and arr. in LHR ? Lance Shippey |
WHBM
I found flt no's SXF/LHR LO245 12.00 14.10 IL18 Days 2&5 SXF/LHR LO255 09.30 13.00 IL18 Flt via AMS. I found no record of IF580 SXF/ULN. Lance Shippey |
As nothing heard re. Burgermeister return to Wildenrath 10th Nov.1989
I presume they went by road, as CGN/Wildenrath only 1hr10min drive. I imagine they were grateful to the RAF for flying them to CGN in an Andover during the morning. Lance Shippey |
The timetable for the SXF to London flights in 1970 is here :
if70-08.jpg (1909×1338) (timetableimages.com) The Interflug timetable actually included every flight into the GDR by foreign airlines. This was not uncommon in those times, not just in the eastern bloc but elsewhere as well - the Finnair timetable, so example, did the same for everything which went to Finland, whether officially in pool or not. I suspect the ABC was not allowed in the GDR. Regarding flights not in the timetable, Interflug did of course do whatever the GDR government required for "special" flights, which could be all sorts. As elsewhere. At the time one would regularly find Pan Am 707s in Mildenhall. Which was never in the Pan Am timetable either ... |
WHBM.
Thanks for the info. The possible involvement by the GDR government is exactly my point. The IF600 SXF/MOS with connection MOS/ULN was shown in guides and their t/t. the IF580 as stated by the CIA was not. Pan Am Mildenhall flights were charters, and can't really be compared to the IF580 schedule flight. Charter flights would not have appeared in PA's scheduled timetable. Less Hair. Iraqi HST took 1hr. 55min SXF/LHR without the Corridor. LOT IL18 took 3hr. 00min SXF/LHR much slower a/c and difficult to compare with similar a/c such as Vanguard. as BE operated Viscount on the svc, and it operated via HAJ, and would have used the Corridor. Lance Shippey |
Three hours? That's a long flight. What speed did they cruise at? Flaps down all the way - and film rolling? Fulda gap in 3D?
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Hi Less Hair.
IL18 388 mph Vanguard 400 mph Viscount 357 mph (810 srs.) Trident 610 mph Lance Shippey |
Was Sarkozy really in Berlin on Nov. 9th 1989 ?
Sarkozy, then 34 years old and deputy leader of the Conservative party "RPR" said that he had received "Interesting news from Berlin, apparently heralding change in the divided capital" He set off to Berlin with political ally Alain Juppe, His visit culminated with him hacking at the wall with his pickaxe. http://www.dw.com/en/memory-loss-sar...nder/a-4878717 Lance Shippey |
30th,Nov.2020 Berlin Brandenburg Airport unveiled
the Willy Brandt Wall in terminal 1 of the new airport which carries Willy Brandt's name. The impressive tribute to Herr Brandt. carries his words. "If I were asked to say what apart from peace, was the most important to me, Then my answer would be freedom". The buildings from SXF now a ten minutes drive from the new airport now become BER terminal 5. I hope that the Brandenburg authorities consider naming the old SXF building after Chris Gueffroy, the young waiter who served his apprenticeship at the SXF restaurant. He was the last person to be Shot and killed trying to escape to West Berlin in 1989. All he wanted, was the same as Willy Brandt. "Freedom" Chris however paid with his life. Lance Shippey |
MUC named after Franz Josef Strauss
HAM named from Nov 2016 after Helmut Schmidt BER named after Willy Brandt. Opened after delays of 10 years FRA perhaps could be re-named "Mutti Merkel, when she stands down. After all FRA is the "Mother of all German airports" Lance Shippey |
Info if possible please.
Berlin SXF had a Postamt (post office) during DDR years with 1189 Postcode, including a telegram department. The U.K discontinued telegrams in 1982. How was it possible for telegrams sent from the SXF postamt in 1987 delivered by the GPO (British Post Office) to a British address ? Lance Shippey |
Originally Posted by Lance Shippey
(Post 10999092)
Info if possible please.
Berlin SXF had a Postamt (post office) during DDR years with 1189 Postcode, including a telegram department. The U.K discontinued telegrams in 1982. How was it possible for telegrams sent from the SXF postamt in 1987 delivered by the GPO (British Post Office) to a British address ? Lance Shippey I must have got one of the last telegrams at Easter 1982 (they stopped a few months later), sent by my office one Friday afternoon to my house in London to await me returning from holiday on a Sunday evening, telling me I was Ticket on Departure on the 8am Shuttle from Heathrow to Edinburgh on the Monday morning ... ! |
Dear WHBM
Thanks or the info. Makes sense now. I received a couple of telegrams in 1987 which were delivered to me by mail. The telegram were on "Telecom" paper, and looked like a type of telex transmission. One was sent by a friend working at SXF regarding an arranged meeting we had on the exit of East Berlin's Friedrichstrasse U-Bahn station. I would imagine that all GDR sent telegrams would be handled by some office of the Stasi. I was stopped after getting my visa at the border, and asked for whom the bottle of whisky I had bought at the Friedrichstrasse duty free stand was for, The guard also wanted to know the name of the person I was meeting. I refused and advise that it was none of his business. I was allowed to exit, and met my friend. The second telegram was from an East Berlin postal number advising me that my friend was in Hohenschoenhausen prison and interrogation centre, and being "Well treated". My friend did not send this, but would appear that it was the work of the Stasi. He was "Bought out" by the West German government through "Freikauf" and the office of Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Vogel. He now lives in West Berlin. He met his interrogator by chance in the KaDeWe cigar shop in West Berlin, which resulted in him having a nervous breakdown. Lance Shippey |
"The Lot IL18 I recall on the AMS/LHR sector had around 14 pax on board. It was as smoky inside as it was outside, with a thick exhaust from the
Ivchenko engines. The guy sitting behind me was American, and amazed that free drinks were being offered. I flew in recent years with Eurolot on an ATR (not my favourite a.c.) and found LOT very acceptable, and cabin staff very polite and professional. L.S." Back in 1973 in my youth I flew AMS- LHR on a LOT Il-18 - there'd been all sorts of bad weather about for days and both KLM & BA were cancelling flights all over the shop (my flight LHR-AMS was in a DC-8-63!) LOT were one of the few flying and I was on a packed but comfortable Il-18 ... for three hours... someone skidded of the side of the runaway at LHR and we were stacked for well over 90 minutes.......... but as you say the booze was free so no pain was felt...... ;) |
Asturias56.
Thanks for reminding me of a flt I took in a DC8 AMS/LHR with a friend in the 1970's Working for BE, we had great discounted travel with PA. We flew in a PAN-AM DC8 which PA had been operated by Delta prior to PA. Spending much time in AMS, I usually used direct services from MAN to AMS. EI/ BAC1-11, and B720 BE S1-11 KL/ELECTRA /DC9 /and sometimes a Martins Air Charter DC7. Lance Shippey |
Entertaining airing of Deutschland 89 on Channel 4 (U.K) at the moment. and a different take on the events after the downing of the wall in 1989. (Rather dark) but worth an hours viewing nevertheless. Also "Strange but True" that a laboratory in the former DDR town of Dessau Rosslau are in talks with Russia to produce the Sputnik V vaccine under licence.
Lance Shippey |
Last night saw the final episode in Walter presents "Deutschland 89" on one of the Channel 4 {U.K.} T.V. channels. Dark and entertaining, but not easy to keep up with the twist and turns, and fictional violence. Interesting was the final scenes in a CIA interrogation bunker in the middle of a GDR forest. I wonder if such a bunker really existed, or was this pure fantasy for the series ?
Lance Shippey. |
On the afternoon of Nov. 9th 1989 deputy U.S Ambassador J, Bindenagel and GDR Lawyer Prof.Dr. Wolfgang Vogel met at a meeting on Friedrichstrasse East Berlin. After the meeting, Mr. Bindenagel offered Dr. Vogel a lift, as Prof. Dr Vogel had arrived at the meeting in East Berlin without his Golden Mercedes.
It gave opportunity for the U.S. Deputy ambassador to get the latest news of the East Germans being able to get exit visas to leave the GDR when they wished. Dr. Vogel's Mercedes according a CIA report was parked near the Ku-Dam in West Berlin. My thoughts are Why did Dr Vogel park his car in West Berlin on that eventful day ? and not at the meeting on Friedrichstrasse in East Berlin ? Lance Shippey |
The meeting at the Aspen Institute on the afternoon of Nov.9th. 1989 was at the Wahnsee in West Berlin. The building at Wahnsee had been one of the homes of Josef Goebbels during WW2, demolished after the war, and as a rebuild became the home for the Aspen Institute. Late afternoon Prof Dr.. Vogel was given a lift back to West Berlin, where he had parked his car by vice Ambassador James Bindenagel. Mr Bindenagel informs me that he didn't know why Prof Vogel had parked his car near the Ku-damm in West Berlin.
In an interview Mr Bindenagel gave to the Library of Congress, he reported a meeting between himself and the U.S. Ambassador to East Germany with Wolfgang Vogel at Vogel's modest home at the Titisee. The location of the house at Titisee appeared very unlikely to me. Mrs Vogel advised me that they did not own a home on the Titisee, and this is probably refers to a meeting her husband had at their home on the Schwerinsee outside East Berlin a couple of months before the fall of the Berlin Wall. Mr Bindenagel, after consulting his old notes confirms the information given by Mrs Vogel. Lance Shippey |
An excellent article written by Daniel Friedrich Sturm, U.S. Correspondent for WELT gives a great insight into some of the intrigue surrounding the Flight to Berlin on the 10th November 1989 and if, or if NOT fellow architect of "Ost Politik" was on board the R.A.F. Andover from Cologne to Templehof. The article can be found by searching WELT Die Reise seines Lebens written 11th Feb 2014. It can be translated by google translate and becomes WELT The journey of a Lifetime.
Lance Shippey |
Recently James Bindenagel, U.S. Deputy Ambassador to East Germany informed me that he arranged the meeting at Kennedy Platz on the afternoon of November 10th 1989 in which Willy Brandt had pronounced his comment what belongs together grows together. "Es waechst zusammen was yusammen gehoert" I have listened to the speech, and cannot identify Herr Brandt saying this. Are these words spoken by Mayor Momper to a reporter, or had I missed Willy Brandt saying this ??
Lance Shippey |
The Fellow architect to Brandt of "Ost Politik" was Egon Bahr. . Bahr claimed to have been on board the RAF Andover with Brandt from CGN to THF. Klaus Henning Rosen, head of Brandts office since 1976 contradicts this fact, and that Brandt wrote his speech " Now what belongs together, will grown together" whilst he was sat next to him. Bahr also claimed that he had met Horst Teltchik, advisor to Helmut Kohl at Templehof. Herr Kohl or Mr cabbage was not well received by the large crowd at Kennedy platz on the 10th November. Kohl dismissed his bodyguards and he abd two others took a taxi to Checkpoint Charlie to see the events there, before returning to Cologne / Bonn from Berlin.
The question remains. Where was Egon Bahr on the 9th and 10th November 1989.?? Lance Shippey |
March 1986. East German lawyer Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Vogel and his second wife Helga left his office in East Berlin, and transferred to West Berlin's TXL airport, where they boarded a flight to FRA and transferred to a SAA B744 to JNB via SAL. On arrival in JNB they flew to Sun City, where he was to attempt to release Nelson Mandela from prison in a "Swap". It proved unsuccessful and he would return to East Berlin after his four days in the sun empty handed.
F.W. de Klerk would release Mandela from prison in 1990. On June 11th 1990, Willy Brandt hosted a reception for Nelson Mandela after having invited him to Bonn after his release. The incredible story of the attempted release of Mandela can be read by searching "A spectacular attempt to release Mandela from prison under the Apartheid regime" by Prof. Dr DR.Ulrich van der Heyden. Lance Shippey |
Originally Posted by Lance Shippey
(Post 11175913)
March 1986. East German lawyer Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Vogel and his second wife Helga left his office in East Berlin, and transferred to West Berlin's TXL airport, where they boarded a flight to FRA and transferred to a SAA B744 to JNB via SAL
su72-03.jpg (2365×1300) (timetableimages.com) |
WHBM.
thanks for the copy of the t/b. The Vogel's were on a TXL/FRA at 13.00 and connected with SA253 FRA/JNB at 17.25 The flight took 15hrs via SAL. They went to Sun City from JNB by helicopter. I am not sure who paid for the flights Lance. |
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