Collecting and researching WW2 pilots flying logbooks
 

Very geeky and sad I know, but does anyone else have any interest in these amazing items of history, we used ourselves not so long back to record our flying careers? A fellow pilot at work was about to throw out two musty old logbooks he'd had since a child, given to him by his dad, who was a fellow WW2 pilot and a colleague of one Fg Off RG Stringer DFC. Luckily he changed his mind and gave them to me, and I started researching Fg Off Stringer's amazing career and short life....finding records of Blenheim missions over Norway, gun camera footage of his kills over the Bay of Biscay, Beaufighter attack missions from Malta and sadly ending clinging to a fuel tank from his shotdown Beaufighter. This lead to a rather large (and one very well-hidden from Mrs Siko) collection appearing in my office, including both RAF and Luftwaffe WW2 pilot's logbooks (Flugbuch in German) and I thought I'd share it with you here, as there seems to be a lot of interest in military aviation history on the forum. I have some really interesting logbooks if you're a fellow history buff and that way inclined: 2 TAF Typhoon pilot, Me109 ace, Ju88/He177 and finally Me262 pilot (surely unique?), FW190 squadron commander in Italy/Curland, Ju87 attack pilot on the Eastern front and many more covering much of the air war in Europe during WW2.

If anyone is interested, probably not I know ;) , I have put a lot of my collection into a thread on another forum which is linked below, with some of the most interesting stuff at the end. If you don't want to click on the link then feel free to google "Siko Luftwaffe" and it's the first hit.

Cheers

Siko's Luftwaffe and RAF Flugbuch/logbook collection - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Siko (if I may?), the Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII thread is now well into its 10th year. Sadly, we have lost many of the members who qualified per the OP and told their stories of wartime recruitment, training, and operations, but happily we have Danny42C, who dive-bombed the Japanese Army in Burma for a living, having been trained in the USA Arnold Schools for his RAF wings. All the stories were woven on the armatures of various RAF Form 414's (Pilots Flying Log Book) of course. Even the stories of deceased fathers, etc, have been related by their children using this invaluable and precise record. At one point it was hoped that Luftwaffe WWII pilots might join our virtual crew-room, but it was not to be. The thread is still very active and drifts as it may, with the WWII RAF as its loadstone. You would be most welcome I know if you could tell the stories that you have researched so diligently, be they of British, Commonwealth, German, or whatever, nationalities. At the moment the subjects, inter alia, are Polish Code Breakers and RAF Overseas Station Architecture, but we amble as we may, thanks to our ever indulgent mods.

Danny is always urging us on, telling us that time is of the essence. As valuable as the OP posts are, the resultant discussion throws up anomalies, corrects long held misunderstandings, and generally takes us back to those desperately dangerous but adrenalin filled years. The stories told first hand of course are very special, and their "by the way" detail unique, but time alas has made it likely that Danny is probably the last to tell us his own story. So now we come to the NoK and the historians and researchers, such as yourself, to speak for those whose records survive them. I for one would be fascinated and grateful if you could tell us such stories. The more fleshing out of those ever terse log-book entries the better.

The stories need telling, but the telling itself can take its time, ever pausing to discuss anything and everything, from technical, administrative, logistical, morale, etc viewpoints. Our crew room, shabby and worn as it may be, has infinite capacity, giving those who take pride of place standing before its chipped fireplace a large and appreciative audience. If you've a mind to join us then please do. The tea, milk, sugar, and kettle are on the left as you come in, with the swindle cash tin right alongside. Grab a mug, help yourself, and find an unoccupied battered armchair near the fire. Danny would no doubt be along shortly to welcome you to our humble abode:-

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...ww-ii-617.html

Simon, I'm very glad to see that you have already accepted my invitation and are already posting on the WWII pilots brevet thread. You can expect an appreciative audience there for the wealth of stories garnered from your Allied and Axis Pilot Logbooks. They can inform and entertain for many years ahead if the pace is set to dead slow, a pace that will allow you to flesh out the more fully those later stories which need it, and for us to mull over the units, types, locations, and campaigns involved.

See you there, NATO standard for the tea? Just take a seat and I'll bring it over.

Cheers,

Chug

BTW, anyone with an interest for WWII history in general, and the RAF's in particular, are always welcome on the thread. With some modesty we claim it to be the best thread on the military forum. Come on over and judge for yourself (and post there as well of course).

The RAF Museum have a random collection of Flying Logs.

Indeed with the agreement of my mother I gave them my father's one to them.

I'm not sure I'd want to hand over anything to the RAFM, personal or otherwise. It seems to have become yet another manifestation of New Think that infests so many of our institutions today. Burning books, including logbooks, should be done in far off countries of which we know little, rather than here. Of course attitudes constantly change, but that is the whole point, it smacks of hubris to think that our attitudes trump any others that will follow. Interesting that the clear out happened in the sixties. That was when we bulldozed a lot of Victoriana, replacing it with modern tower blocks instead. That worked out well, didn't it?

When I was dealing in militaria I always used to advertised for medals and flying logbooks (as well as other items). Over the years I purchased many lovely groups of RAF medals, including DFC, DFM and AFC groups, a group to a Battle of Britain Air Gunner, and many more. However I hardly ever managed to obtain any logbooks, as they were deemed to be much more personal to the individual than the medals themselves. One lady was quite content to sell me her late husband's AFC group, but would not part with his logbook, which I fully understood. She did however lend it to me and it was fascinating. Around the time of the Normandy invasion he was the CO of a Mosquito squadron, and somewhere around D plus 3 he was shot down, but was lucky to parachute into friendly territory and was soon back on ops. The story behind that short logbook entry was that subsequent examination of camera footage revealed the fact that he had been shot down by one of his own squadron who had mistaken him for one of the Me110s they were "involved with", Hardly a career move on the part of the offending pilot!

Such is the sort of info that can make a logbook fascinating, and makes them hard to collect. I am always looking up things in my own rather slim logbook, and I know it will never be disposed of it until such time that it becomes the property of "the late TTN"

Chugalug - I wouldnt give the RAFM the time of day, let alone a logbook, and that goes for most museums. Unless it is exceptional it will disappear into a vault and never see the light of day again.

You need to be careful about how you "give" something to a museum. There are choices to be made about the donation, and an accredited museum will give you correct paperwork to record the transaction. Firstly, if you give, or donate, an object to a museum then it ceases to be your property and belongs to the museum, and this is the fallback case if you don't have any paperwork. This means that they can do whatever they want with the item including destruction or even selling on/giving it away themselves. However, you can "loan" items to the museum which means that you maintain ownership of the item which is under the custody of the museum. You can also add terms to the loan such as how long they can have it and whether they can sub-loan out etc. The advantage of loan is that you know where the object is - just keep your paperwork safe and you can get it back if you want. The disadvantage of loan is that if you leave something of value (such as medals) then it stays as part of your estate and when you die then there can be a scramble of relatives/people claiming executive rights wanting the item back so that they can sell it. I have heard many people complain that items are locked away and don't see the light of day again when they have given them to museums, yet they have given possession away legally. The bottom line is that you must discuss the giving/loaning of an item with the staff at the museum and decide what is best for you, but always ask for the paperwork if you go for a loan.

Wensleydale is quite correct. However, museums are often reluctant to take material on long-term loan, not least because they are then providing the owner with free storage. Although nearly all museums have more material than could ever be displayed at one time, those items in store should be viewable on request, and I know that the RAF Museum's archive is made available to researchers, family members etc. Arguably, when a logbook goes into a private collection, it becomes unavailable, unless someone like the OP publishes scans/transcripts on the web.

The decision made to burn unclaimed logbooks in the early 1960s was made by the Air Ministry - ironically, not long before the RAF Museum was founded. The following is from Air Ministry and Ministry of Defence: Aircrews' Flying Log Books The National Archives - "In 1959 the Particular Instance Paper Committee recommended the destruction, save for a few specimens, of log books remaining unclaimed in the Air Ministry despite announcements in the Press. Further announcements were then made through the Press and BBC stating that books not claimed by 15 September 1960 would be destroyed. Of the 6,400 shelf footage of log books, 20 feet were selected for preservation, aiming to illustrate: format of log bookstypes of flying training at home and abroad, aircrew trades, flying experience, operational flying experience, theatres of war, campaigns and operations. Also selected were: log books of distinguished pilots or members of distinguished squadrons, especially those detailing engagements with the enemy; of pilots with exceptional flying experience; and of foreign nationals flying with the RAF."

No navigators, air gunners, flight engineers etc? Or are you guilty of the usual journalistic offence of referring to all aircrew as "pilots"?

TTN ;)

SimonK I'm sure the IWM would have a good look at such interesting items?

TTN - Not my words but TNA's; their text does mention "aircrew trades". A search of AIR 4 reveals 26 navigators' log books, and numerous other aircrew categories, among the 249 items in the Class, dating from 1915 to 1983. It's difficult to get exact numbers, because the cataloguing isn't specific enough.

It's not for me to say whether there are distinguished (their word) navigators etc., but I suspect the original selection focussed on names that the record reviewers recognised - Gibson's second logbook made it to Kew; he had lost the first.

An interesting link, Innominate, thank you. So the Air Ministry as was had 6400 feet of aircrew logbooks stored (better by the yard no doubt!) of which they only preserved 20 feet? One wonders why they held so many in the first place. Everyone who has posted on this forum (including Danny 42C and his ilk) and quoting from their own log books seem to have left their Service with their log book(s). I'm not sure what the procedure was for deceased aircrew though. Would the logbook not go to the NoK along with other personal items? Or was the security aspect in WWII such that the logbooks were retained in that case? If we say that a logbook was only half an inch thick, that means 24 to the foot, so approximately 153600 in total. Bomber Command had by far the highest loss rate, and the largest number of aircrew. The quoted number of BC losses being of course 55.573 (only aircrew?), just over a third of the total number calculated of stored logbooks. Does anyone know the total RAF aircrew losses from 1918 to 1960? I know this is a crude calculation but would it not have to go back to the very beginning of the RAF to accumulate that much occupied shelf space if of deceased aircrew? Institutional vandalism was alive and well in the 60's of course but this cull of RAF history is truly breath taking.

If you cry for log books, I can assure you that much more important historical stuff was dumped somewhere at the period.

The WW2 ORB of one Sqn was rescued from a skip just a few years ago..it was the Sqn's copy and a new OC didn't want the shelves of his registry "cluttering up". It was given back to the Sqn when a new OC who was more appreciative of the history was posted in. The same Station had some pieces from the wreckage of one of the Stn's Lancasters in the foyer of Ops Wg. A new OC Ops demanded that the "junk yard" be removed.

Chugalug, I think there was something on here a while back re WW2 log books. Apparently in the 60s an appeal was put out by the MOD ( or who ever it was then ) to try and reunite the many log books that they held with families of the deceased. Some came forward and claimed them. Others which were of significance were kept. The vast majority were unfortunately destroyed. As to why so many were held one can only guess. When personal effects were being given back to next of kin, one would have thought that they would want their log book? Or maybe they were never offered to the families? However my own great grandmother, did not want anything to do with the war after her son was killed in Bomber Command and had all of his possessions destroyed. I would very much have liked to seen my great uncles log book, if it was handed back, but I respect the wishes of my great grandmother.

Is it not the case, that log books are an official record and are the property of the MOD and not of the individual who is just the custodian? (Serious question).

indeed, confirmed in the Kew link posted by innominate:-

but then a completed Leave Pass would be an Official Document wouldn't it? The Pilots (or other Aircrew) Flying Log Book is not even a Restricted Document, and the fact that we all have our own ones points to the clear implication that Official Record or no, it can stay with its subject aircrew on leaving. As the AM/MOD offered its shelf loads of them to anyone who had a reasonable claim (ie NoK), I still don't understand why it ended up with so many of them in the first place.

Franek,
in the many offences of the MOD and those who worked for it to be taken into account, burning Logbooks is no doubt the equivalent of being charged with failing to keep one's inoculations up to date. Presumably it didn't cost lives and endanger many others, whereas pulping the Airworthiness Regulations and sacking those who refused to suborn them did....