Channel 4 Programme on Tirpitz Sinking
 

In case you haven't spotted it, Channel 4 has a rather good programme on the sinking of Tirpitz here: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/t...et-history/4od.

At the risk of repeating a cliche, what a generation.

A very good programme it was! The footage taken on the raid was remarkable. You have to have some sympathy for the poor guys aboard the ship when the 12,000 pound bomb hit.

The footage was taken from Lancaster PD329 JO-Y of 463 Sqn, RAF Waddington, flown by Flt Lt Bruce Buckham. 463 Sqn hosted the 5 Group Photographic Film Unit and possessed 3 modified Lancasters with extra filming positions. Some brave cameramen went along to film many of the daylight raids (and some night ones) during the war, and much of the airborne film seen today about Lancaster bombing raids was taken by these Waddington crews.


One of the filming pilots was Flt Lt Tottenham whose name appears on an engine nacelle of PO-S in the RAF Museum at Hendon. He was killed on 26 September 1944 while on a photographic mission on a daylight raid over German gun positions near Calais in support of attacking ground units. Having just completed his first tour on 467 Sqn (where he was one of "Sugar's" regular pilots) he was flying his second mission of his second tour when he and his crew died. This mission was not recorded in the 463 Sqn F541 (Tottenham's aircraft is often erroneously listed as lost during a raid on Karlesruhr).

Which Bombing computer?
 

Enjoyed the program, and amazed at the accuracy of the bombing considering the technology that was available then. Anyone know which variant of Bombsight computer was used on the raid?
The first "computer" I worked on after joining the RAF was the T-3 Bombsight computer and can recall it had ballistic setting data for Lancaster, Stirling and many other WW2 bombers on the inside of the main cover. I would imagine it would have been an earlier mark, maybe the T1 or T2?
It was an amazing piece of kit to see operating, it had a slow cyclic movement oscillating around 1 hz from what I remember.

The computer used was the Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight - a more accurate form of the Norden bomb sight that was used for daylight raids by the USAAF during the War. This bomb sight was issued to specialist units such as IX and 617 Squadrons to allow them to drop their single big bombs with more accuracy. The usual main force bomb sight at this time was the Mk XIV which was excellent for use during night bombing but not as accurate during daylight. The T1 series of sights were developed for use post war as the Lancaster sights were not deemed suitable for the faster aircraft that came along later (and eventually replaced by radar bombing systems).

Ok, stupid question of the day- why should a bomb sight be more accurate by night than by day? My simple mind cannot understand the logic of that.

This looked like a recently produced programme and I thought it did a good job of recounting the events. Of course, historical accuracy is always a contentious issue and I don't think 9 Sqn or their association will be too pleased with almost all the emphasis going to 617 Sqn.

However, it is indeed a remarkable feat to drop bombs ballistically from 15,000ft and score direct hits on 3 out of the first 5 bombs.

The new(?) information regarding the fighter wing at Bardufoss & the English-sympathising German radar officer was very enlightening and just proves how close we came to disaster but for a few other minor events.

Ok, stupid question of the day- why should a bomb sight be more accurate by night than by day? My simple mind cannot understand the logic of that.

Probably my bad use of English... the Mk XIV was equally accurate during night and day and was designed for dropping sticks and clusters of weapons at night when main force was bombing visually on flares often dropped by use of electronic targeting aids - quantity of bombs on target area over quality of aiming was the order of the day (think shotgun). Something more accurate was needed for single bombs in daylight and hence the use of the SABS for this tasking. No doubt, cost, rate of manufacture, and ease of setting up the sight was also a factor in which system to use, although I believe that targets were more difficult to find when using SABS at night. Also note that both bomb sights were integrated into the aircraft systems and could not be easily transferred - hence their use by just IX and 617 as the 2 precision bombing squadrons in their "special" modified Lancasters.

Wensleydale - very many thanks. W

Seems to have been a German comms screw-up followed by a lack of urgency getting fighters airborne to intercept the final and successful raid - phew! ;)

JAJ,

Definitely recently produced as Phil Tetlow (WOP/AG from 9 Sqn), the guy with the sense of humour, was just recounting his Tirpitz experiences, and the filming, to us at last month's ACA meeting in Nottingham. Unfortunately, the edit cut out the bit about the landing conditions when the Lancs arrived at the FOB in Russia before the first raid. Evidently horrendous, many aircraft did not 'make it' and many were forced to turn back and/or seek an alternative landing site. So not quite as portrayed by Channel 4 but a good documentary nonetheless.

Bloggs:ok:

"The computer used was the Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight - a more accurate form of the Norden bomb sight that was used for daylight raids by the USAAF during the War. This bomb sight was issued to specialist units such as IX and 617 Squadrons to allow them to drop their single big bombs with more accuracy. The usual main force bomb sight at this time was the Mk XIV which was excellent for use during night bombing but not as accurate during daylight. The T1 series of sights were developed for use post war as the Lancaster sights were not deemed suitable for the faster aircraft that came along later (and eventually replaced by radar bombing systems)."

Thank you Wensleydale for the comprehensive answer, must see what I can find on the MK xiv sight, very capable as was proven.

Which Computer ?
 

A quick Google finds this excellent view of the T1-A Bombing computer linked to a MKXIV bombsight. Could this setup have been used on the Tirpitz?

That T1-A computer looks very similar to the T-3.

Glenn's Computer Museum

The standard bomb sight at the start of the war was the Mk IX Course Setting Bomb Sight. All parameters (aircraft speed; height; bomb type; wind velocity etc) had to be manually set by the Bomb Aimer. The aircraft had to set a steady heading and the bomb sight could not cope with any aircraft manoeuvre on the bombing run. Later marks had an attachment for moving targets such as shipping.


The Mk XIV had many advantages - the main one being that aircraft movement was automatically fed from the aircraft's instrument system into a bombing computer that gave an output for the bomb sight leaving just 3 parameters for the bomb aimer to enter into the computer. This computer then fed an illuminated line onto a piece of gyro-stabilised Perspex in the bomb sight which the bomb aimer used to line up the target (think of the spitfire gyro-stabilised gun sight but as a straight line). Being stabilised, the bomb sight could cope with a certain amount of aircraft manoeuvre on the run in - a distinct advantage when running through a flak box! The disadvantage with the Mk XIV sight was that any damage to the aircraft systems could lead to loss of the entire system, in which case the bomb-aimer was issued with a "wiz-wheel" type computer (similar idea to the circular slide rule on the Nav Computer) which would allow him to either set up for a purely visual drop or indeed give a "dive-bombing" angle for the pilot to assist hitting the target!


A Google search gives lots of info and images of the various sights.


Edited to add... the Mk XIV bombsight and associated computer was the complete system - I am not sure if the bomb computers for the Mk XIV could also be used with the SABS sight and vice versa but I think that it is unlikely in which case the SABS sights fitted to the Lancaster specials flown by 617 and IX would have had their own specific computer.

Did the bomb aimer have to aim directly at the target? Or was it possible to apply some kind of offset so the aimer could line up on something easy to pick out and the bombs would actually be aimed at the real target several hundred yards away?

No offset (unlike the Vulcan H2S radar bombing system). The projected lines formed a cross on the Perspex plate. The bomb aimer talked the pilot to fly the aircraft along the fore/aft line (track) and released his bombs when the crossing line met the target. The bombing computer took care of the effects of wind, altitude, bomb type etc leaving the bomb aimer free to concentrate on the aircraft heading.

It seems to me that it isn't so much the accuracy of the bombsight used on the raid that is significant, but the German fighters based at Bardufuss in order to intercept raids on the Tirpitz. "But they didn't Holmes". "Precisely, Watson, precisely!".

Lt Carl Heinrich Vesna (Sp?) was i/c the inland facing Wasserman Radar positioned to detect a follow up raid using the same technique of coasting in further south, entering neutral Swedish airspace, then attacking Tirpitz from the East. The programme suggests that it was not until Tirpitz itself detected the raid and alerted Bardufoss, an hour after the initial radar contact, that fighters were scrambled. Even then they were held for an inbound Ju52! By the time they got to Tromso the Tirpitz was sunk and the Lancs just gone.

Patrick Bishop suggests that Vesna was part of the German Resistance and deliberately sabotaged the Tirpitz's defence, hence saving the stripped out Lancasters of IX and 617 Squadrons, and instead enabled the destruction of the Tirpitz and 1000 members of its crew. How do we feel about that? What does the present German population think about that? Sobering thoughts indeed!

BTW, repeated tonight (Monday) at 1900 Hrs.

Definitely worth watching. Apart from the interest most of us here would have in the challenge of getting there and conducting the attacks, the description of the Tirpitz crew members trapped in the space with the tide rising is chilling and thought provoking, as are the last few seconds of the whole programme, when the German Me 109 pilot reveals his still deeply felt emotions on what he had to do at such a young age. (I think he was a 109 pilot but someone will probably shoot me down if you'll excuse the expression, they did use pictures of a FW190).

Incidentally, for those who have wandered the streets of Andoya with an expensive hangover looking for something to do there is a bit of nostalgia as they pay a visit to interview a resident.

Was a good programme. Apart from the "Bloody Hell, you brave and talented sods" that is a given, I was amazed that the raid violated neutral Sweden - that was a jaw-dropping moment. Were they given DipClear, or just said "Sod the Swedes"?

I got the impression that the programme was a bit rushed and left out a lot of important information. I've had an interest in Turpitz since visiting the Turpitz museum at Tromso while on Det a few years ago. The biggest omission in my view was that when Turpitz was finally sunk it was already considered to be unseaworthy by the German Navy and was only moved to Tromso to be used as a fixed coastal defence battery.
The damage caused by the previous raid was such that after the bow was patched up at Alta the ship was only able to move at 10knots to its new berth at Tromso. Once at Tromso there was no intention for the ship to move. This was completely ignored in the programme but is in Patrick Bishops book.
While the technical details of the raid were fascinating, and the bravery of the crews on both sides never in doubt, by the time of the sinking Turpitz was of very little strategic relevance.
Remember, by that stage of the war the Red Army was already in Poland and the western allies were closing up to the Rhine. Whatever the Turpitz did would not affect the outcome.
Of course hindsight is a luxury we can afford!

Papa

Not so rushed that they forgot how to spell Tirpitz though.


Strategic relevance is not based on actual capability so much as perceived capability.
If we didn't know it was useless, we had to treat it as if it were useful.

Exactly, the perceived threat was there without doubt. What would have been more tragic would have been if the 109's/190's had got in amongst the Lancs and it subsequently turned out to be for nothing.
Just thought it could have been told better, especially since the author was involved.

Apologies for the spelling by the way.

PD, I've no doubt that what you say is right, but hindsight is not really the point is it? This mission was incredibly dangerous and by rights should have ended in disaster, not for the Kriegsmarine, but for the Royal Air Force. That it didn't can be easily forgotten in the rightful pride that IX and 617 Sqns feel for the amazing feat that they pulled off (in equal measure!).

Perhaps though it is time to confront that mystery and ask why it was that the raid confronted no resistance save from the Tirpitz itself. Now, one could take the view that it is the opinion of one man in Andoya and of the Walt that used to employ him in his radar installation. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying, CR, as your last sentence was a little too obtuse for me to comprehend.

There was a dilemma though for the likes of Lt Vesna (sp?). He was seemingly a Norgephile, speaking the language fluently and writing post war to the local paper in explanation of his actions, and perhaps even an Anglophile. Yet the war had bypassed Norway which was under the command of a Reichskommissar bent on making Norway a centre of Nazi resistance, thanks to the considerable number of SS troops stationed there. For less fanatical Germans like the good Lt and his like minded comrades this was a disastrous prospect, and the sooner that the war was lost the better could have been their conclusion.

At any rate, if there be any truth in Patrick Bishop's contention then we must surely owe it to Lt Vesna to consider it, for if it be true then he was a very brave man, especially given the dreadful revenge wrought by Hitler after the June 1944 attempt on his life.

Perhaps just me - and the fact that ABTF was just on the tele - but I thought that the 109 pilot looked the spitting image of Dirk Bogarde!

Excellent programme.

Duncs:ok:

Yeahbut... My simple understanding is that although damaged beyond practical repair, with machinery thrown out of line etc. The British didn't know it and therefore, to them, Tirpitz still remained a "fleet in being". I have heard that the crew that hit her on the bows with a tallboy was not believed when they claimed the hit.

After an excellent landing etc...

I was surprised to hear the bomb used described as a precision one, early in the programme.

Interesting programme

What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.

Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?

That was Tony Iveson.

It's an interesting point about our intelligence of the situation of Tirpitz. PRU activity, Enigma decrypts and Norwegian resistance reports kept us reasonably well informed on the German big ships. In addition the departure of the Admiral and his staff could have been noticed by signals intelligence.


Her being shifted to Tromso from further north must surely be considered a retreat as her purpose in Kaafjord (and nearly all German surface navy activity so far in Norway) was to interfere with the Russian convoys. Dredging work took place at her new berth in order to prevent the ship capsizing, which could have been noticed by the Norwegians and perhaps by the PRU. Furthermore I don't think Tirpitz was provided with any destroyer escorts in the vicinity which would suggest at least she wasn't ready for sea.


No matter, the deed had to be done.


Here's Tirpitz on the way to Tromso with a black/grey/white camouflage.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2cn78z5.jpg


This picture comes from this site:


German Navy in World War 2 - Kriegsmarine | World War Photos

There was apparently a Norwegian report at the time that said the ship had been hit in the bows but the extent of the damage wasn't known.

As skua says, that was Thomas Clifford (Tony) Iveson.

He was a sergeant pilot on 616 Squadron when he flew during the Battle of Britain - and survived ditching in the North Sea in September 1940. He was posted to 92 Squadron the following month and spent some time in Rhodesia as an Instructor.
He was commissioned in May 1942, joined 617 Squadron in 1944 and promoted to Squadron Leader later in the same year.
In his own words: On his last operational Lancaster flight, in 1945, his aircraft was badly damaged by a German fighter over Bergen. Three of his seven crew bailed out, believing they were about to crash. He managed to fly the damaged aircraft back to the UK and made an emergency landing on Shetland, for which he was awarded the DFC.

He was inspirational and impressive speaker in support of the Bomber Command Memorial, and had no time for what he called 'self-appointed armchair historians' who criticise Bomber Command ops:
I last saw him during lunch at the RAF Club following the 2013 Battle of Britain memorial service at Westminster Abbey. He was clearly very ill and, I'm told, knew it was the last time he'd see some of his old friends. He passed away about six weeks later.



Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund - A Battle of Britain pilot remembers

FL

way back when
 

I was in the bar of the Auldgarth Inn after a days fishing and I got talking to a lad who was once a shepard up in the Cheviots. He said theres a Lanc and a B17 up there, crashed like. In the summer the peat dries out and the planes rise. In the wet they sink back.
I've heard the Lanc had bullet holes in it later identified as that of the .303 type. Was coming back on a raid from Norway but spanked into the big hill between there and its base.
Explain.
Gunners opened up on themselves? Mis-identified by RAF NF and shot down, or damaged and then in-directly shot down? Cook off from rounds? Just an average young tired wartime aircrew, who screwed up and who flew in?
All true? RIP.
Bomber Harris, rot in hell.

Ah, you must be from the British Establishment! Welcome, we are indeed honoured by your presence.

Hangar

Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."

Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.

I know he generated controversy but care to explain ???

No, just he's just a guy with a chip about the military. His career in the Royal Navy didn't go well and he was far down the food chain for the great majority of it.

As seen in previous posts he doesn't miss a chance to have a go at the RAF.
When the famous 617 Squadron was disbanded he posted "We don't need squadrons of bleating crabs blethering about the old days!! Get up and get jobs in civvy street. Do you all good for a change."


Great quote about the crucial role of Bomber Command in post 31. :ok: That's the truth of it.

When the danger's over some folks like to rewrite history.

Bronx

Thanks. I withdraw my question !
Inter service banter is one thing .............

listening to what my Grand mother (and mother) and the rest of the family went through, I have no qualms about the war being taken to Germany.
The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level- just before he got blown out of the sky by the Ack Ack gun at the end of the street !!!) and week after week had bombs, V1's and V2's fall on civilian areas so I don't blame them for doing likewise. I would.

To wake up in the morning to find the house just behind you had vanished, family included, all the windows of your house blown in, and as my mother said, the Fish tank glass shattered and the water and fish all over the floor. Yep, really going to win the war by targeting civilians, all it did was give plenty of people, especially my grand mother a pathological hatred of the Germans !

It really annoys me when so called experts, and we're normally talking journalist or historians sit on their fat comfortable arses enjoying the comfortable life and freedoms that those serving during the war brought them, then berate all of the actions like the bombing policies of Harris or anything else that took place, but if one of those actions saved even a single life at home or in the services, it was worth it in my eyes.
I weep for the likes of those that suffered the death marches, punishment by the Japanese and Germans during the war to rid of us of the evil that existed, I would like to tear one of these hypocrites from their comfortable lives and throw them into the likes of a Burma prison camp. And let us see how long their views lasted.

Nutloose

Agree totally.

500N. Can you recall or know the date of that incident? A rough date will do. Although in the mists of time.....the type of the aircraft would certainly help.

I ask because of a similar incident I recall. They might, just might, be related. Indeed, it would be astonishing if they were.

PPP

PPRuNe Pop

Firstly, I saw you had posted and thought, "oh no, here comes another warning to cool it and another thread ban" :O

Secondly, I have posted about it on here before because a couple of people corrected me and said it couldn't have been a Stuka.

Re the incident, I can get my mother to ask her sister / my aunt what year.

I can tell you that I think they were walking up the street they live in and the German flew over the Ack Ack gun which was on the grassed area at the end of the street as my grand mother received a phone call to say "We got him for you".

To be confirmed but I think the street they lived in was Upfield St, off Addiscombe Road, Croydon. The surname of Granter. I think the house that collected the bomb behind / near them was in Fitzjames Avenue. I think the gun was located on the Shirley Park Golf course.

Now that is from memory so let me check the details !!!

BTW, in case any of you were wondering, the bullets went either side of my grand mother and her daughter and neither were injured (my grand mother hit the deck on top of her daughter) but she remembers looking and seeing the pilots face he was that low :rolleyes: