PPRuNe Forums - Mystery Aircraft

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Mystery Aircraft

This is both a challenge as well as an education for me. Can you identify the aircraft in the photograph. I am not sure where it was taken or the country of registry.

I have numerous photographs that were given to me by a friend upon his death and I am unable to identify many of them so your help is appreciated.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4510b3da.jpg

Image does not seem to be there.

photo should be there now. I had a little trouble.

PZ-TAD Northrop YC-125B Raider
Leased by Suriname Government/SLM from Ambrose Aviation for equipment transport for landing-strip construction.

It's a Northrop YC-125B Raider. PZ was the prefix for Surinam in S America. The 'B' in it's description meant it was built for the USAF for rescue work in the Arctic in the early 50s. It was under powered and not used for long by the military. The aircraft in the photo was used in the construction of new airfields and was taken about 1959 or 60.The YC-125 was a STOL aircraft, but this one kept on having landing accidents!

Photo here of the same aircraft ("Grasshopper") at Paramaribo: v57n1 -

Quote:

The YC-125 was a STOL aircraft

Though sometimes it needed a bit of help. :O

http://www.aerofiles.com/north-c125jato.jpg

"The Captain asks if you wouldn't mind putting your cigar out, sir"

A good portion of these aircraft wound up in a USAF Maintenance training school at Sheppard AFB in Texas. They were all over in a bone yard next to the main terminal when I last saw them in 1964. Don't know if they had an after life or not, but I think at least one or more wound up in Mexico and Alaska.

An ex-Mexican example is in the Pima museum outside Tucson.

You guys are really great. Thanks for all your wisdom! This photo was in our office in Philadelphia for years but no one seemed to know why since it didn't seem to be one of ours. Perhaps we leased it or moved supplies with it or something. In any case you are just great. Sooooo......what about this one?
http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps39774016.jpg

siseman, that is too funny! I love your humor!

sillohed
I believe that may well be an Airco DH9A "Ninak". However, instead of starting another aircraft recognition thread why not use the ones in existence already such as the "challenge" thread or "Heikkis' Silhouette Challenge".

I checked out both threads prior to starting a new one. I notice that you are very active on the challenge site so you can probably answer my question. It appears that "challenge" is rather structured and not a line where you can just "jump in" with a new line of inquiry. The appearance is that you have to wait until one subject is exhausted before starting a new one. I have a few private photographs that I was looking for information on rather than simply "challenging" someones knowledge. Perhaps the name of my thread is mis-leading. I would be pleased to have a larger "audience" in helping me identify these pictures but I didn't want to monopolize the challenge site either. What do you think?

Here is another photo of the same plane as above. I should probably state more clearly that my thread is not simply a challenge to test one's knowledge of the subject. As I stated earlier, these photos are all personal ones that I acquired through a couple different sources and what I am looking for is any information regarding what kind of aircraft, registration numbers, history, ownership, etc. The response to the initial posting was exactly what I hoped for and which I can use to share with others interested in the subject aircraft. Thank you so much for participating, I know there are other threads that might be suitable but this is a very narrowly focused thread.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps32fae8fd.jpg

sillohed.
Please accept my apologises I misunderstood the reason for posting the images. I do however believe the aircraft is an Airco DH9A Ninak that has possibly been modified for civilian use. Have you any details where this accident occurred?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...pseed31918.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...psa9f53fcf.jpg

The "Ninak" is also two bay biplane and the cut-out in the trailing edge of the upper wing matches the crashed aircraft. Also the upper ailerons have two similar control brackets per aileron as the crashed aircraft. The engine would appear to be a Rolls Royce eagle VIII.

MReyn 24050,
Thank you so much for the photos and information. I presumed that the crash of this airplane was during WW I but I am not sure. Is this the same plane do you siuppose?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps2cf3334c.jpg

Another Question

WAG but I think that's a Sopwith Camel.

Great photos - please post more!

sillohed,

As albatross says, great photos.

Your closeup photo is of an Airco DH4, the forerunner of the DH9. The big difference is that the cockpit of the DH4 is under the wing, between the interplane struts. The DH9 fuselage was redesigned to move the cockpit aft, away from the engine and fuel and closer to the gunner. Judging by the campaign hat of the soldier in the rear cockpit and the M1911 he is holding, I think this must be a US Army DH4.

Concerning the crashed DH9, as Mel says, it looks like it was converted for civilian use. I think the engine is the Liberty L-12, which is consistent with a DH9A (or the American produced USD-9 and 9A). The name "Ninak" or "Nine-ack" was an unofficial phonetic nickname. The letter A was called "Ack" during WWI, rather than the "Able" and then "Alpha" of later years.

Your last photo certainly does look like Camel, but the wingtips seem a little odd.

I think that last photo is an S.E.5/A. The mainplane and elevator planforms match.

Edit: On closer inspection, you can even make out the cowling on the upper fuselage just behind the cockpit opening.

sillohed,
As Simon says the close up photograph is more likely to be a DH4. However, the guys in the cockpits look to me to be airmen from the USA. Therefore the crashed aircraft could possibly be an American built DH4-B a rebuilt version of Liberty powered DH-4 for U.S. Air Service. The Pilot's cockpit was relocated to behind fuel tank, adjacent to observer's cockpit. Similar to this photograph of the US marine version O2-B1.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...psb21bab34.jpg

An interesting feature of the crashed aircraft are the strengthening tie-bars going between the outboard wing struts. I cannot find any photographs of the DH.4 or DH.9 aircraft with these rather heavy tie-bars.

I'd agree with nacluv, it's an SE5a. The wingtips are wrong for a Camel and the Camel nose was much shorter.

You guys are probably correct! That's why I love this site.
Ask a question - get an answer.
No "I am smarter than you are." or "Your grammar or spelling is incorrect." as sometimes seen on other threads.

Definitely not an SE5/SE5a

I am thinking Sopwith Snipe

Arc

nacluv. I am not convinced this aircraft is an SE5.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...pscd01cb0e.jpg

The roundels appear to be incorrect for an SE5{-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...ps7692059d.jpg

Whereas they fit the Sopwith Camel;-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...psf61911e5.jpg

I disagree!

Look at the planform of the wings, and in particular the elevators.

Then look at the length of the nose in the original photo. If that was a Sopwith, no nose would be visible forward of the leading edge of the upper wing from that angle.

Also as I posted earlier, you can make out the cowling behind the cockpit aperture - I maintain it is an S.E.5A. :)

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraf...allout-Top.jpg

naclav. OK I agree it matches the SE5 better than the Sopwith. The corner radius of the upper wing matches the SE5 and I will also the Engine projects forward more.

So can I safely say that the crashed plane is an Airco DH9 and the cockpit closeup is a DH4 or DH4-B and the airplane in flight is an SE5? Now to show my ignorance further who are the manufacturers of these two planes. With this information I can give a proper title to each photograph. I can't thank you guys enough, I have been a pilot for 55 years and feel pretty stupid about these vintage planes. I have a few more that I will post but I am trying to keep them in some semblance of order so it makes sense. Regards,Ed

American Marines?

I am guessing that this is the DH4-B since the cockpit is below (not behind the wing). The troops look U.S. Marines to me but the cockpit arrangement and the markings on the wing suggest U.S. Army and the plane doesn't match your photo of the 02-B1 posted by MReyn24050 .http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0eddb5c6.jpg

This is my all time favorite photo. These guys look so so casual. The markings appear to be US Army so I presume this is another DH4-B http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps570aa854.jpg

This picture really has me perplexed. The engine cowls look odd and the rest doesn't seem to match anything else in the collection. There are a couple of seaplanes that I will post later but this looks like a two engine boat on wheels (lots of wheels). And is that two vertical fins and rudders? Any ideas?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0a65899c.jpg

I think you'll find it's a Martin MB-1 - the first bomber built for the US Army Air Service and powered by twin 400 hp Liberty engines and, like a lot of larger airplanes at the time, with twin rudders.

G'day sillohed.

I'm thinking your two biplanes above are Jennies....

http://i42.tinypic.com/dzbyw.jpg

Quote:

I have been a pilot for 55 years and feel pretty stupid about these vintage planes.

No need to feel stupid. Stick around here and you'll learn a lot. I certainly have! For example, I didn't know about the US-built DH-4B that Mel mentioned above.

I agree with Noyade. Your latest SE pictures are of Jennys. The kingposts above the outer wing panels are a very distinctive feature. Here's my favourite Jenny picture, showing the kingposts being used for a different purpose:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psd1ef99cb.jpg

Concerning manufacturers, see:

Airco DH.4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sopwith Aviation Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martin MB-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Curtiss JN-4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Back to the original crash photos. There is a very nice picture here of a DH-4B at the USAF museum:

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/sha...-1234S-001.jpg

The cockpits are similar to the crashed aircraft, but the windshields are definitely smaller and there are no tie-bars (well spotted Mel).

Coincidentally, there is a Martin MB-2 (a modified MB-1) in the background.

There are also some very nice cockpit pictures of a DH-4 Mailplane restoration here:

DH-4

The windshields on the crashed aircraft definitely have an "American look" to them and in the distance in the first photo are some buildings of military appearance.

Any thoughts on the location, anyone?

sillohed you wrote:-

Quote:

So can I safely say that the crashed plane is an Airco DH9 and the cockpit closeup is a DH-4 or DH4-B and the airplane in flight is an SE5?

Forgive me I may have confused you. In my initial assessment of the crashed aircraft at Post #10 I stated

Quote:

I believe that may well be an Airco DH9A "Ninak"

. After further analysis of the photographs posted at Posts # 14,15 and 17 I would say my first assessment was incorrect.

From Wikipedia:-

Quote:

The Airco DH-4 was a British two-seat biplane day-bomber of the First World War. It was designed by Geoffrey de Havilland (hence "DH") for Airco, and was the first British two seat light day-bomber to have an effective defensive armament. It first flew in August 1916 and entered service with the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) in March 1917. The majority of DH-4s were actually built as general purpose two-seaters in the USA, for service with the American forces in France.
The DH-9 was designed by de Havilland for the Aircraft Manufacturing Company in 1916 as a successor to the DH-4. It used the wings and tail unit of the DH-4 but had a new fuselage. This enabled the pilot to sit closer to the gunner/observer and away from the engine and fuel tank.The DH-9A - (also referred to as the Nine-Ack) was designed for Airco by Westland Aircraft to take advantage of the 400 hp (298 kW) American Liberty L-12 engine. Apart from the new engine and slightly larger wings it was identical to the DH-9. Initially it was hoped to quickly replace the DH-9 with the new version - however a shortage of Liberty engines available to the RAF curtailed the new type's service in the First World War – and it is best known as a standard type in the postwar RAF – serving as a general purpose aircraft for several years. 2,300 DH-9As were built by ten different British companies.

I agree with the comments made by Simon at Post #20 in that the aircraft in the photograph at Post # 17 is an US Army DH-4 but not a DH-4B.

On the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force website, in respect of the De Havilland DH-4, the following is stated:-

Quote:

The DH-4 was an ever-present element of the U.S. Army Air Service both during and following World War I. When the United States entered WWI in April 1917, the Aviation Section of the Signal Corps only had 132 aircraft, all obsolete. Modeled from a combat tested British De Havilland design, the DH-4 was the only U.S. built aircraft to see combat during WWI. With inadequate funding to buy new aircraft, the newly created U.S. Army Air Service continued to use the DH-4 in a number of roles during the lean years following the war. By the time it was finally retired from service in 1932, the DH-4 had been developed into over 60 variants.

During WWI, the Air Service used the DH-4 primarily for day bombing, observation and artillery spotting. The first American-built DH-4 arrived in France in May 1918, and the 135th Aero Squadron flew the first DH-4 combat mission in early August. By war's end, 1,213 DH-4s had been delivered to France.

Unfortunately, the early DH-4s had drawbacks, including the fuel system. The pressurized gas tank had a tendency to explode and a rubber fuel line under the exhaust manifold caused some fires. This led to the title "The Flaming Coffin," even though only eight of the 33 DH-4s lost in combat by the United States burned as they fell. Furthermore, the location of the gas tank between the pilot and observer limited communication and could crush the pilot in an accident.

To overcome this problem 1,538 DH-4s were modified in 1919-1923 to DH-4Bs by moving the pilot's seat back to a similar position as the DH-9A and the now unpressurized gas tank forward, correcting the most serious problem in the DH-4 design.

I therefore believe the crashed aircraft is an American DH-4B

In the photo of the Jennies and Marines, I think the aircraft obscured by the Marines might well be a DH, not a Jenny. No kingposts, and a different engine cowl.

What do you reckon?

Am I Driving You Crazy Yet?

So what do you think.....DH4 on floats?http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/a...psd76aaf21.jpg

India Four Two and Noyade, thanks for straightening me out on the Jennys. I thought they were DH4's but I can see the subtle differences (or not so subtle to a trained eye) now that you mention them. ed:)