Vickers Vildebeest.
 

I have recently been shown a photo of a slightly 'bent' Vildebeest.

The photo was taken in the Malaya/Singapore area either late 30s or very early 40s. It shows the aircraft having come down in what could be a rubber plantation with damage to the right mainplanes. There is a recovery crew at work on the aircraft. Unfortunately, there are no serial/identification markings visible in the photo.

The one thing which is confusing me, as well as the person that emailed the photo, is the fact the aircraft is fitted with a three-bladed propeller which very closely resembles the type of prop fitted to the Fairey Swordfish. The aircraft in the photo does not appear to be a Mk IV version which had the Perseus engine and three-bladed prop, but is more likely a Mk III. AFAIK, all the aircraft operated by the two Vildebeest squadrons (36 & 100) in the area at that time only had two-bladed props fitted.

Is anyone aware of any trials which involved the fitting of a three-bladed propeller to Vildebeest aircraft in the Far East? Have done a pretty thorough search on the Net but not turned anything up.

Would be grateful for any assistance.

laurieb,

I can't help you but I just wanted to say that your question is one of the things I love about PPRuNe. Someone asking an arcane question about an 80 year-old aircraft with every expectation that someone will be able to answer it.

I'm on the same wavelength as someone who used to be able to state the significant differences between every mark of Spitfire and all the diffent versions of the Avro 504. :ok:

Someone on here:

Britmodeller.com



may be able to assist.

Possibly 101 Squadron?

100 Squadron Association - Royal Air Force

I F T,

Since I first connected to this wonderful world-wide-web some 12 years ago, I never cease to be amazed at the level of knowledge/expertise there is out there in deepest cyberspace. Particularly on forums such as this. Truly amazing.

This request was simply a shot in the dark but, hopefully, something might materialise.

CB 09, HH,

Many thanks. I'll follow-up on those links.

Have a read of this - might be a bit of a clue:
German bomber parts for sale in NZ [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

RNZAF Vickers VILDERBEEST 1930s Aircraft PROPELLER | Trade Me

L T,

Thanks for that steer.:ok:

Just been given the go-ahead to add the photo.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8328/8...7a5c72ab_c.jpg
Vildebeest down01 by Janner88, on Flickr

Interesting - but the description of the prop on the RNZAF...

So it doesn't sound like the prop on your photo - maybe a local modification - didn't the Gloster Gladiators at Malta modify their props to improve the performance...?

according to Masons "The British Bomber" the Mk II served with 100 Sq at Seletar from December 1933

it was replaced by the Mk III, introduced in 1935 and these only served in the Far East with 100 Sq and with 36 Sq at Seletar - 10 survivors of the war in Malaya were withdrawn to Java in 1942

no data on what sort of prop the Mk II and III had but the Mk IV (only 18 built) had a cowled engine and only served in the UK

pity we can't see th e cockpit area - the Mk II carried two crew, the III 3 crew

looking at the gubbins between the wheels under the fuselage it looks as if this was a bomb equipped plane and therefore more probably 100 Sq. - the torpedo installation was very clean under the fuselage

Photo of Vildebeest Mark ll

photos as Seletar

Collections listing for "part of "MAGER ROY"" | Imperial War Museums shows 100Sq Mk III's with spats

Vildebeests in Singapore and Ceylon

torpedo dropping!!!

some were apparently in Ceylon with 273 Sq when the Japanese attacked - see link above

The one thing that strikes me about this superb old photo is what a bloody good job the pilot did in landing his kite - it looks as though he pancacked it in!

L T,

As you point out, the description in that quote does not bear any resemblance to the prop on the aircraft above. I don't have any info on Gladiator props so can't answer that question. The prop fitted to the aircraft above looks very similar indeed to that fitted to the Fairey Swordfish which, I believe, was of all-metal construction.

H H,

I have enlarged the photo sent to me as much as I dare, up to around 400%. It looks as though there is another cockpit behind the pilot's. There seems to be a coaming pad in that area. If it were a two-seater, I would not expect to see that. I think it is a Mk III but cannot be absolutely certain.

O Ops,

I thought the same.

With the exception of the area immediately in front of the aircraft, there seem to be trees all around the frame yet the only real, visible, damage seems to be to the outer parts of the mainplanes on the right-hand side. Amazing!

Many thanks for all the pointers so far.

For the three bladed Gladiator props - apparently one ('Faith') or several Malta Gladiators were fitted with Blenheim engines and thus the Hamilton three blade prop. Which again doesn't look anything like the Swordfish type prop in your picture. I'm erring towards the prop must have been a local modification or a trial.

L T,

Both the chap who emailed the photo to me and I think it could have been some form of trial fit. Swordfish were in service with 4 AACU from around 1939 onwards I believe. That unit also operated Vildebeests.

Taking that a stage further, and referring back to Heathrow Harry's earlier comment (Post #10) about the "gubbins between the wheels", I am now wondering if that "gubbins" could be some form of winching aparatus for a towed target.

Further to my target towing comment above, I have been looking at the area of the photo behind the local labourer wearing a turban.

There appears to be a piece of equipment jutting horizontally out of the area where the Lewis gun would normally be. There also seems to be a fan-like object mounted on that.

Or, am I seeing things?:confused:

Could it be one of these?

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Website%...ng%20Winch.jpg

It certainly looks to be the same contraption to me.

21-Oct-34 Vilderbeest K2931 of 100Sqn crashed in Malayan jungle.

See the following newspaper report for recovery story


Newspaper Article - R.A.F. PARTY'S TWELVE-MILE JUNGLE TREK TO FIND WRECKED BOMBER

Thanks Paul. Quite a trek there.

Paul has also come up trumps with this link:

Newspaper Article - R.A.F. PLANE DOWN ON RUBBER ESTATE

Let's face it - bleedin' amazing what PPRUNE can achieve innit...now we just need to know why they tried the three blade prop...

amazing hardly covers it - a 70 year old picture of an unidentified aircraft somewhere in Asia and in 4 days we had the Squadron, the type, the fact it was fitted for target towing and now the names and ranks of the crew and the location


if we all spent the same amount of effort & intellect on business we'd be rich, RICH, RICH ;););)

Photo of Mk.III of 100 Squadron

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../HU_059796.jpg

The RNZAF Museum in Christchurch are currently undergoing a restoration of a Vildebeest. They might have some information.

Vildebeest | Air Force Museum | Christchurch New Zealand

Amazing is right. As I mentioned in Post #4, boards such as this seem to be able to unearth just about anything on any subject.

A little more info on the pilot has come to light, again thanks to Paul Mc. See his post #23 here:

German bomber parts for sale in NZ - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

I have also obtained some more gen on the aeroplane via another members only forum.

K2929 Vildebeest Mk II
D'lved to 100 Sqn 2.10.33
Packing Depot 11.10.33
Far East 4.1.34 for 36 Sqn
Fitted as TT. Engine lost power after dropping target; crashlanded, Seletar, 28.9.37; SoC as BER (834.55 FH).

There is also another photo of the aircraft on the last mentioned forum. As it is members only, I cannot link to it. However, if anyone has a copy of the book,'Hornet's Nest, A History of 100 Squadron', the photo is included in that and shows a view of the crash site from behind the aircraft this time.

As L T says above, all that is left now is to discover why the non-standard prop was fitted. Still working on that one.

Many, many thanks to all who have helped unearth the story behind the photo.

lauriebe, the following link notes serial allocations were:

Mk II K2916 to K4130
Mk III K4156 to K6407

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...0-1937&p=81818

So seems to confirm your aircraft is a Mk.II, and I would assume since both the II and III had the same engine, the three blade was fitted to the II as well as the III, as in the photo of the III in my previous post. As to why? Easier on stores stocking one type? Trouble with the two blade in the tropical climate?

Photo of K2918 a Mk.II

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...st_Mark_ll.jpg

Brian, thanks.

The propellor fitted to the aircraft in the photo that I posted is certainly a non-standard item. All photos of the type that I have seen show a wooden two-bladed prop, even as late as Jan/Feb 1942 with aircraft withdrawn to the Netherlands East Indies. This is the first photo, so far, that I have seen of a Vildebeest MkII/III with a three-bladed prop.

My background is non-technical (pen pusher), so I am not aware of the possible advantages/disadvantages of that type of setup. Both the chap that sent me the photo and I were wondering if it had to do with the target-towing duties that this aircraft was engaged upon; possibly offering better performance?

It certainly appears the Vilderbeest has one of these.....

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Website%...ng%20Winch.jpg

What on earth is it?

What is the vehicle limited to 16 MPH?

T W,

It is part of the winching mechanism for deploying air to air gunnery drogues. Can be seen in action in this short Pathe clip:

TRAILER TARGET... DROGUE - DUBLIN - British Pathé

Sorry, not sure what your reference to 16 MPH is.

The photo I posted at post #22 seems to me to be a three blade. You don't agree lauriebe?

Brian,

Have just had a closer look at the photo in post #22.

At first I thought that only one blade was visible but looking again it seems that there are possibly two. If that is so, the angle between them would certainly indicate a three-bladed propellor on that aircraft as well.

Do you know where and when the photo was taken?

Laurie


Collections Search for "MAGER ROY" | Imperial War Museums

I believe the photo was taken around 1936

Paul

The caption on the photo says "Vickers Vildebeest Mark III torpedo bombers of 100 Squadron approaching Tavoy, Burma. 11 February 1939", and came from

No. 100 Squadron RAF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have tracked that photo down as part of the Roy Mager collection held at IWM.

Have spent quite a bit of time studying it and am not convinced that the aircraft in it has a three-bladed prop fitted. The area around the centre more closely resembles that of a two-bladed wooden prop.

It's a speed limit on the side of the lorry in your photo. I wondered why it was 16 mph instead of rounded to 15 mph.

I think it is a 3 blade propeller.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...14at063635.jpg

The top/vertical blade is almost invisible even in a static prop.

India Four Two,

Thanks for the clarification. Understood now.

The vehicle is another interesting feature of that, and another, photo. It has a double front axle with caterpillar tracks at the rear. Why the speed limit should be set at precisely 16 MPH I cannot answer.

Possibly because of the tracked arrangement at the back end of the vehicle?

aviate1138,

I take your point re the top/vertical blade.

However, based on the hub arrangement, which more closely resembles that of the two-bladed propellors originally fitted to the Vildebeest, I still think it is a two-bladed propellor. It is very difficult to define an accurate edge to the blur of any blade in that photo .

I was also looking at the two-tier exhaust shown on the aircraft in the photo posted by Brian A. Not a normal feature of the Vildebeest. In Aviate 1138's enlarged version of that same photo, there appears to be a gap between the front end of the top exhaust and the engine itself. Not connected?

Is it possibly a case of carrying a spare in case of need during the deployment? The top exhaust seems longer but if the front end were moved forward and attached to the collector ring, the length would be much the same as the bottom exhaust.

I guess out there in the boonies and maybe a downed Vilde to extract the exhaust is for another machine?

When Spitfires changed prop types 2/3 they still bolted them onto the same hubs didn't they?

I have had 2/3/4/5 blades on my Rotax 911 - same hub, different blade numbers.

lauriebe, contact the site here. They have a New Zealander (Don MacKenzie) who flew the Vildebeest as a pilot with 100 Squadron before being posted to Ceylon in July 1941 to the Detached Flight that had six Vildebeests and four Fairey Seals.

Vildebeests in Singapore and Ceylon

Brian,

Thanks. I have already been through that site and have been in contact with Dave Homewood, the chap that runs it. No further forward unfortunately.

Have also downloaded the 100 Sqn ORBs and annexes which cover the period 1934 - 1941, from the TNA site. No details recorded in those documents either.

Have looked through pretty much all the material on the 'Beest that I can find on the 'Net.

Aviate1138,

Sorry, cannot answer the question re Spit props/hubs.