Press reports of accident at Duxford 10/07/11
 

Some press reports of an accident yesterday at Duxford involving an A-1 and P-51. No injuries but any details?

P-51 was Big Beautiful Doll, the Skyraider was French-registered. Midair, took four feet off the Doug's right wing but it landed safely. the P-51 went straight in, but the pilot bailed, at a surprisingly low altitude, and is also okay.

Glad it ended without tragedy. If the Big Beautiful Doll was G-HAEC I have some history with it. When it was brought to the UK by the OFMC, I spent some time working on it to cure several electrical defects. Great shame about its loss but aircraft can be replaced.

Fortunate conclusion, but what a shame. Saw them faultless on the Saturday.

Big Beautful Doll only just been sold by to Germany by Rob Davies after more that 1,000 hours seat time in P51's. Glad everyone safe, but a tragic loss after so many safe years operation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...xfordcrash.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...xfordcrash.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...xfordcrash.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ldIMG_8557.jpg

Bus429It used to be. (So do I, in its OFMC days.)

Great shame but, as you say, aircraft can be replaced.

FL

Looks like the A-1 lost its pitot tube with the lost wing area. Good job in landing it safely, especially if he had no ASI. The Mustang pilot must have been quick to get out looking at the height available. Well done to both pilots.

Ouch, that could have ended very badly. Remarkable that both pilots survived. Modern pilot bale out rigs open very fast indeed and very low. Also proof if anything that the Spad was indeed a rugged aircraft.

By George:

"Well done to both pilots"

?

What a shame that G-HAEC is no more. The airframe was sourced in the Philippines and rebuilt/restored in Hong Kong by the Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company (HAECO), hence 'G-HAEC', under the watchful eye of Mal Rose who was then a Cathay Pacific flight engineer plus some others including Ray Hanna who was also with Cathay. Ray did a fast taxi run at Kai Tak but was prohibited to take off. Soon after that she was crated up and shipped to the UK.

I seem to have caught this incident in a closer way than most and my video which includes 'a half-speed replay', is on my website WWW.flyingfilm.co.uk


David Taylor

Looking at the shot of the Skyraider coming in to land sans wing portion, was it a terribly good idea to select flaps ?

What a totally fatuous statement made by someone who has obviously never been involved in such a situation.

Looks like the Skyraider pilot screwed up big time. Where was he looking ? He hit the Mustang from behind...

JW411, Get off your horse. I haven't been involved in a mid-air between warbirds, no, but I know what asymmetric flap does...

JW411 You could have said 'What a totally fatuous statement made by someone who isn't and never has been a pilot'
and you would still have been right.


Walt Are you sure the flaps are actually asymmetric?
FWIW I think it's an illusion created by the camera angle, but I bow to your expertise as an experienced photographer.


FL

Photographer yes, from a flight test background.

So you think selecting flap is a good idea with a wing in that state, when IF it went asymmetric you'd be rolling into a rather reduced wing & no aileron ?

I didn't say it was asymmetric, I am saying it would be worth considering in the circumstances, when it would be all too easy to select in a hurry to get down with unpleasant results.

Have a think about it, before rushing for your cheap insults.

Double Zero; I feel quite sure the pilot of the Skyraider would know the effect of an asymmetric flap.
He would be able see that the upper surface of the flap was undamaged and some way away from the missing wingtip.

If the aircraft had started rolling as the flaps were lowering and he was unable check the roll, he would have undoubtably very quickly. moved the flap lever back to the UP position.

Yes, FWIW (not much), I think it was.
There was no reason for the pilot to believe that the operation of the flaps had been adversely affected. He could see that the damage was to the outboard section of the (famously strong) wing. ie To the 13 feet (approx) section beyond the folding mechanism.
See:
http://www.air-and-space.com/2007052...20rear%20l.jpg

If his belief turned out to be wrong he could, as Henry says, have taken appropriate action.

Where do you get the idea that he had no aileron? :confused:
He would I suspect have been experiencing a great deal of buffeting, and have been acutely aware that he might lose it altogether, but the (shortened) aileron protrudes beyond where the mainplane has disappeared. The outboard hinge departed with the lost section of wing (about 4 ft), but there were still two of the three hinge points remaining.

I have no reason to suppose that he did anything in a hurry following the collision. From the reports I've read elsewhere, he appears to have assessed the situation and his options and then landed safely.
I would not have criticised him if he'd got out in a hurry; he opted to stay with the aircraft.

BTW, I'm sorry you regard my comment as cheap; I thought it was valid. I admit to being influenced by some of your previous comments in this forum, which IMHO have been quite extraordinary given that you are not a pilot.
Yes, I know you've sat in with some top pilots.
You could sit in a garage for hours but you still wouldn't be a car.


FL

Flying Lawyer,

It may amaze you but my previous work has not been restricted to taking pretty PR pictures.

When with BAe ( where I first trained as a fitter ) my main work was in photographing aircraft internals, wingtip to wingtip, nose to tail, for the instruction of fitters, technicians & designers.

My other main work was attending various aircraft & equipment trials, handling various externally mounted plus cockpit cameras, and assisting the development of recce systems.

I was always closely involved with these trials, and was usually attached to the Flight Test team; I have been involved with aircraft since I could walk & talk, as my Father was a Leading Air Mechanic on Seafires & Hellcats, before going on to serve 35 years at Dunsfold, becoming what I think can be proven the top crew-chief of his day, running the aircraft on virtually all harrier trials from FRS1 to GR5 ( trials I was involved with too ).

I was also photographer at various accidents large & small, including a BOI.

Since leaving Dunsfold I have had a couple of other jobs in aviation, one involving a lot of flying in Cessna 172's for photography, where I did most of the hands-on flying ( big deal I know ! ) as a sort of autopilot; I have never bothered with PPL due mainly to the cost.

I am also heavily into aircraft history, and served as a guide at Tangmere for a year.

It is precious beyond belief to think that only pilots may dare comment, and if I feel I have something useful to say I will not be prevented by a few cheap remarks; I still believe the possibility of asymmetric flap was quite a real concern in this case, and whether the pilot would have been able to get the flap/s back up in time if a roll started seems dubious; it certainly should have been on his mind when selecting, hopefully it was, but someone's remark 'what makes you think he was in a hurry to land ?' is verging on the comical...

When I first commented, all that was required was something on the lines of 'why do you think that ?', rather than leaping into 'he's not one of us', which does you no favours.

OO,

I am sorry to say that I think you have only yourself to blame here. You are making comments and statements that have no connection with photography, and you making comments that a non flyer should not make - you have embarrassed yourself more than a few times before. We are all aware of your experience at Dunsfold - you have told us often enough.

I do not think for a second the Skyraider pilot would not have deployed the flaps without very measured thought. He would have had to exercise a great deal of care using perhaps 'a notch at a time' as quickly as he could to find if any potential problem is present, and he might equally have put them down on the last stage of finals. In either case he would have been aware that there could be an assymetric problem and been prepared for it. It is clear that there wasn't since both were down at the stop point. All pilots are taught to recognize the problem. I am sure with his skill he would have instantly recognized it and dealt with it. He could, of course, have landed without flaps but it was his choice. Let us not forget either, that he showed not a small amount of skill in getting an aircraft back on the ground with several feet of wing missing.

As for making comments on PPRuNe, this forum or another, you must respect that some of us have considerable experience, often at very different levels but we are pilots. You are not and I suggest you control the urge to press the submit button until you are sure of what you speak - thus avoiding putting your foot in it.

Enjoy PPRuNe but do please see that you will arouse some derision if you go too far - or turn your argument into one of angst.

PPP

Quite so Pop

OO - stick to exposing yourself with a shutter.

Hope this isn't going to become another load of OO verbage akin to that of flying under Tower Bridge, ruining an otherwise largely informed thread.

Pop & co, if you are going to close ranks and refuse to admit anyone knows anything but you, you can do without me.

It seems discussion is beyond you, cheap insults are all you can manage...

Goodbye to the lot of you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../grumpyold.jpg
Goodbye to the lot of you

What a strange fellow. :p

I'd forgotten how quickly PPRuNe descends into petty arguing!

I for one agree with the idea of not selecting flaps down, but then I dont know the skyraider's airframe at all and the amount of hinge points, location of flap motor etc etc.

Kudos to the pilot, he may have hit the P-51 but to stay calm enough afterwards to number 1 get it out of a dive, then 2 land safely, with a sizeable chunk of wing missing, fair play, I would've jumped!

Pulled out the NATOPS manual for a high powered piston I once flew courtesy of the USN and looked up the check list for "Airborne Damaged Aircraft". Remember the damage may be as a result of collision or combat.

If anyone has problems with the pilots use of flaps, perhaps they can direct their concerns to the USN, in the first instance, so they can amend their procedures.

You know what, fellow PPRuNers? All's well that ends well. Only loss here is an airframe...(putting things into perspective). All this typical spatting doesn't change that. See what the AAIB say.

Wonder what the conversation was like when the pilots met later on?

Wingisland.

The Skyraider is built like the proverbial brick ****house.

A picture speaks a 1000 words.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...TT10418402.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...TT10418391.jpg

KARMA.
 

There's some Karma involved here. Mustang G-HAEC in civilian form came from the far east and while in Hongkong it was proudly and artistically adorned with the name " MISS WONG " That name should never have been changed.

Prince of Dzun.

You have touching faith in the human being's infallability to undoubtably take a certain action in a fraction of a second.

For what its worth my thoughts were exactly the same as OO's on seeing that photo.
I cannot for the life of me see what prompted that vicious attack on someone who merely asked a very sensible question, (I'm not aware of OO's "previous" on this forum) though as JW411 seems unable to determine the fundamental difference between a question and a statement one cannot take his remarks too seriously.
Damn shame this place descends so quickly into slamming people just because they are not pilots, as if that had anything to do with the posession of technical know-how or the right to post and ask a question. We would do well to drop that sort of self-aggrandising bigotry here.

Personally I'd be very cagey indeed about selecting flap under such conditions and wouldn't dream of doing so without a handling check at a safe bale-out altitude first. Did he?

Bear in mind he was shot full of adrenaline and hadn't displayed any sort of airmanship or, frankly, common sense in the incident itself so why does anyone expect him to do so upon landing?

OO, sorry about the trashing. You asked a sensible question and one that must have been on many other's minds too.

Agaricus bisporus
That's very obvious.

Thanks for stopping by.

B.

Well I've just taken a look.

He certainly has a trumpet that he enjoys blowing into :ok:

I will refrain from adding further, except to say that moderators do not have to justify their actions and OO has prompted reactions that have been deserved. It is difficult to have to tell somone how it is. This, or any other forum on PPRuNe, is not a place to spout about something that that person has little knowledge of. OO is in that bracket. I started this forum from a base of knowledge I had gained in many years of display flying many types. I could not, therefore, allow someone without pilot training to mislead people. Guessing how an accident may have happened is plainly silly, even stupid.

I have quite a few messages of support in this. Though I do not need them I am grateful for their interest.

PPP

For those inquiring about the use of flaps in this case.

I was involved in two incidents, not accidents thank God, with aircraft with wing damage. One was very severe, but the severity of the damage was not known to the crew in flight. The second case involved a 727 and I believed the severity was worse than it actually was.

Many years ago I was a co-pilot on a Convair 300, a corporate version of the Convair 340. One morning while I was scheduled on a trip in the company MU-2, another co-pilot and the chief pilot had a trip early the same morning in the Convair. I arrived at the hangar shortly after they had taken off. As I was getting the MU-2 ready one of the maintenance people came running out and told me the Convair had declared an emergency and was returning.

We ran out to the edge of the ramp to get as close to the runway as we could and saw the Convair on short final, gear and flaps up. As it passed over the end of the runway the gear came down and they landed. after using all of the runway they pulled off at the end, shut down the engines and was promptly surrounded by the CFR trucks.

As we drove out to the aircraft I could see that the right wing had dark strains streaking back from the leading edge of the right wing back to the trailing edge of the wing, the entire length of the wing. As we drove up Tony, the chief pilot, and Rick, the other company pilot and my good friend, were standing under the right engine just behind the right main gear. Then Rick walked quickly over to the grass next to the runway and threw-up.

The exhaust system had collapsed, most likely on takeoff at full power, and the exhaust from the engine had been routed out through the wing deice system causing a fire just behind the engine just behind the right main gear. This fire could not be seen from the cockpit obviously and was in an area that had no fire detection. There was a hole just behind the right gear that one could fit a large office desk chair in.

The fire had melted two of the wing spars. Now, this is where bar talk/hangar flying can save your butt some day. (and now I guess the Internet) Just after we had bought the Convair, Tony was sitting in hotel bar on a RON and started talking with a American Airlines Captain. As they were talking about Convairs in general this AA Captain told Tony a story about what had happened to a good friend of his that was a Captain on an American Convair 440. It was the same thing that would happen to our Convair a couple of years later.

In the American's 440 accident all was going well until they selected landing flaps, that was too much strain on the damaged wing, the wing separated from the aircraft and it crashed killing all on board. When the same thing happened to Tony and Rick, Tony remembered that story he had heard from that American Airlines Captain.

On the landing brief Tony told Rick that no matter what, it would be a no flap landing and that they would keep the gear up until over the runway, that way if he felt anything unusual as the gear was extending, he would just slam the aircraft on the runway before the wing could come off and then hopefully they could get out alive.

We all drank a lot of Scotch that night.

The next incident was not near as exciting as was the Convair story. I was PIC/PF on a 727 one day as we left an small airport. Shortly after takeoff I saw a flash of white out of the corner of my right eye and then felt an impact through the controls. I continued the takeoff profile and then as we were cleaning up the wing (retracting the leading edge devices and flaps) the leading edges were slow in retracting and just for a moment we thought that they were not going to retract at all, but they did.

I sent the FE back to check out both wings, but told him to pay special attention to the right wing, where I had seen the flash of white. He came back and told me he could see a substantial dent where the number five and six slats joined. I decided to proceed to the next destination where there was a maintenance base and a lot longer runway.

The 727 is one tough bird and to be honest I was not all that concerned, but the incident with the Convair those many years ago was in the back of my mind. When we got in range the FE talked to the maintenance people and we formulated a pretty simple plan. We would stay at 5,000 ft AGL and slowly configure for landing. That way, should anything strange or unusually happened, we would stop and land with what ever configuration we ended up with. As soon as we selected flaps 5, the LED disagreement lights illuminated. So we landed with flaps 5 and used a bunch of runway to stop.

Turned out it had been a bird strike, a rather large bird that managed to hit the one area of the leading edge that it could do the most damage. I guess as kind of a pay back for being killed by the aircraft.

So we ended up spending three days sitting while the new slats were shipped in and put on the wing. We ended up drinking a lot Scotch then as well, not due to the incident, but because there is not a hell of a lot to do in Harrisburg Pennsylvania. :p

The moral of this story is, never assume a thing, take things slowly, remember what you have heard and take what you can get. Unless you know for a fact not do do something from a similar accident, that way you end up with an incident, not an accident.

Who knows what the Skyraider pilot was thinking? He had just been involved in a collision which he probably thought he had caused, having very nearly crashed himself. Under the circumstances, I reckon my judgement would have been slightly affected. I personally would have done a slow speed handling check at altitude and then not changed configuration, but I wasn't there and didn't see what happened after the collision. And if he didn't, I wouldn't have blamed him.

What we should be asking is what went wrong and who the hell briefed a break from vic with the leader breaking first? Anyone experienced in formation should be cringing watching that video. And before anyone flames me for this opinion, I have a lot of experience in flying formation and wouldn't have contemplated such a manouevre. It was risky - as the outcome proved.

Concur Dan - from an ageing armchair!

Prince of DzunYes, from the Phillipines.
Ray Hanna (a Cathay captain when the 10 year project started), Mal Rose (a Cathay FE throughout) and a couple of others whose names I can't now remember bought two damaged P-51s from the Phillipines in 1975. One had been licence-built in Australia and the other was American built ex-Philippines Air Force.
They chose the original Australian markings for the finished aircraft so when it arrived at the Old Flying Machine Company in 1985 (Feb or March) it had the paint scheme below. I remember the great excitement when it arrived.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...yer/G-HAEC.jpg


It subsequently had several different paint schemes before it was sold in 1997, including 'Missy Wong from Hong Kong' for the filming of Steven Spielberg's 'Empire of the Sun' in 1987.

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-51D-Mus...Warbird-01.jpg


Karma?
You could be right. :)
On the other hand, it had a good life in the 12 years it was with the OFMC, apart from some minor damage in a ground-handling incident when we were in Switzerland circa 1986. And, as far as I'm aware, when it was with the next owner from 1997 until he sold it recently. (He was flying it for the current owner when the accident occurred.)


FL