croydon aerodrome air safety
 

Hi All

I don't want to sound morbid, but did Croydon aerodrome have an unblemished air safety record ?

No, although fatalities were relatively few. The worst pre-war wreck, which killed autogiro pioneer Juan Cierva and 13 other passengers and 2 crew, was KLM DC-2 PH-AKL which crashed on take off 9/12/1936. Post war this was exceeded on 25/1/47 by another take off crash when a Rhodesian DC-3struck a Czech DC-3 with the loss of 18 in all.

Earlier an Imperial DH.34 crashed in Purley on Christmas Eve 1924 with the loss of 8 lives after failing to gain height after take off. This showed up the inadequacies of the original Plough Lane field and resulted in the extension of the airfield to the size which it maintained through the 30s and 40s to closure in the 50s.

There was one other fatal crash , 2 persons on an Air France LeO 213 which struck a radio mast on take-off, 22/12/34. Also at least 7 non fatal crashes pre war.
....Doug

The various pre-war incidents are described in a separate chapter of the book "Croydon Airport The Great Days 1928-39", published by the London Borough of Sutton (surprisingly much of the airport is in Sutton, not Croydon). The houses in Foresters Drive around the south side of the airfield seem to have received more than their fair share of misfortunes.

My parents lived in Foresters Drive which was on the boundary of the airfield before I was born. They told me that a DH 34 took the chimney stack off the house but I don't suppose that will figure in the stats because people took such things fairly calmly in those days.

This not unknown type of incident was caused from time to time by the use of long wireless aerials trailing below the aircraft, which were wound in and out from the cockpit for takeoff/landing by the wireless operator. Forgetfulness during the downwind checks (if they had such a concept then), aerial stuck, winding handle breaking off, etc would lead to the cable striking the ground on finals, house roof tiles etc being a prime recipient.

There used to be (early 1970's) clear evidence of some damage to one of the many pairs of semi-detached houses in Foresters Drive just south of Waterers Rise on the north western corner of the field. The southern half of the semi had teh original hipped roof; the northern (damaged) half had a repaired roof but with a gable end. Obviously a cheaper repair at the time when materials were scarce.

Last time I was over that way I noticed that both roofs were now the same - pity.

I'm sure "Treaders" will be on here soon giving us the benefit of his more detailed local knowledge.

I seem to recall something like Airspeed Oxford crashing on to the roof of a church on the corner of Stafford Road and Woodcote Road Wallington - probably a little after the war.

Treaders, I think you and I have discussed this over a beer sometime.

Croydon, considering it pioneer status, had a remarkable history of safety. The DC-2 was by far the worst there IIRC. Incidentally, it had already aborted a take-off in fog - it was the second attempt that proved fatal.

Certainly have PP - I have a vague recollection of a DC-3 or a Viking perched atop a house which I think may have been at Northolt, but something similar but more destructive also happened at Croydon.

I have two photographs of the burned out Czech DC 3 at Croydon taken by my father.

Treadigraph... Yes the "rooftop" Railway Air Services DC-3 on 19 Dec 1946was ex-Northolt, no serious casualties on board or in the South Ruislip semi on which it settled - the house subsequently being re-named "Dakotas Rest".

http://middx.net/hillingdon/forum/vi...hp?f=19&t=2100

Although it wasn't in the immediate vicinity of the aerodrome, the Sabena Airliner that crashed in nearby Tatsfield in December 1935 is presumably not the only mishap that occurred to planes heading for Croydon and which should therefore be counted as part of the less fortunate history.
I grew up in the village and though the event was well before my time, there are still oldies there today who remember the occasion. Back in those days there was a Plessy Air Lighthouse south of the settlement, one of a string that illuminated the course from the south coast to Croydon. (The site of this, now occupied by a radio mast, is still enclosed with the original wooden fence visible in old pictures of the beacon.)
Flight included a short comment on the report in November 1936:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203221.html

Reflecting on the invariable responses so frequently encountered in this very forum upon contemporary incidents, I note there is also an article in Flight just a few days after the accident including the statement of "... a Croydon correspondent...' who had '...little doubt...' that ice formation had something to do with the loss of the aircraft. A few lines later, we are told that '...opinion among the pilots of five nations is unanimous ... 'That it was in no way the fault of that fine and experienced pilot..."
The AIB report on the accident however comes to the seemingly well considered opinion "That the accident must be attributed errors of judgement on the part of the pilot; errors to which the bad weather conditions undoubtedly contributed." having excluded the likelihood that ice was a contributing factor.

We are however assured by the writer earlier in the piece, referring to the professional fraternity at Croydon, that, “Pilots' gossip is often very illuminating, for they know what they are talking about.”
The more things change....

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935%20-2-%200728.html


jg

(Not perhaps so inviting noticing as I Googled to check my info that on the same page as the accident results is a current ad for Cheap Sabena Flights to Europe... )

An interesting ad, seeing as Sabena went bankrupt and out of business in 2001 !

...quite right... but it's still there....

Cheap Sabena Flights

Compare Sabena Flights
Find The Cheapest Airlines Online.
CheapEurope.com/Flights

Rooftop Crash
 

The story I like was that the Radio Officer left the Aircraft went into the attic down the stairs and caught a Bus back to Northolt

Hidden aircraft remains - croydon airport
 

total nonsense...? Anyone else have knowledge of this....

CROYDON: Is perfume warehouse hiding secret aircraft? (From This Is Local London)

Croydon "safety"
 

It was hardly Croydons fault that aircraft outgrew its suitability for public transport operation.
The HP42's seemed to manage ok.and their huge tyres could cope with the grass surface.
The airport's site was no doubt chosen due to its good road links to London, and less flying distance to Paris.It was always prone to fog,and also no doubt to the dreaded "smog",and would get water logged with ease.With no chance of extending its TODA or TORA any post war flying was going to be limited,and without a tarmac runway any aircrafts takeofff performance was going to be weather limited.
However it served to put transport flying into the public gaze,and pioneered many features that we now take for granted.The classic terminal building was designed to be "passenger" friendly",and was a model of efficiency in its day.It took a while for the post war regulations to catch up with Croydons situation,but once the "metal monoplanes " went from J52's to DC3's its future was sealed,but past never forgotten.
AS a youngster growing up in the area i well remember the powerful rotating beacon that could be seen for miles (it reflected on low cloud very well),and the railway station at Banstead that had its name on its roof (a legacy to Croydons early radio days).
Pobjoy
BTC attended the first airshow there after it closed.

Miles Gemini G-AJZI Crashed on take off ,hit trees on high ground SW of the airport on flight to Milan ,crashed Ridge Park 27.2.48, 09:31 hrs. Pilot Wg/Cmdr W.H Wetton(ex Booker airfield owner ?) injured his passenger Mrs P .Beverley was killed. Presume heavy with fuel and baggage.

Gemini crash
 

If you looked at the performance of the Gemini,and the time of the year the machine probably never had a real chance of clearing out of the bowl-like airfield.
PC
WB940 was a favourite barge for me.

What was the pre-war reluctance with hard runways at the "major" airports of the time ? The significantly worse performance you get operating from grass really affected the low-powered types then around. 40% extra factor when operating off grass ? Could they not handle any crosswind and thus needed a circular field to give a landing/take-off in any direction ? Did fragile undercarriages need extra resilience ? Croydon had a hard apron but not runways.

Gatwick spent money on a new terminal and train station in 1936, only to have the whole lot become unusable due to waterlogging in the winter, and all the operators moved away.

I don't know if the runways were inadequate for DC3s and the like of the time; Croydon was 4,000 feet, and DC3s have operated effectively on comparable tasks from shorter strips. Tempelhof in Berlin was the grand new airport of Europe at the time, they had 5,500 feet and later operated 727 and One-Eleven jets out of there, and Comets to the Mediterranean, in the 1970s. Hard runway of course. I'm sure DC3s would get off in half that length.

croydon - airways beacon
 

Pobjoy (lovely little engine) mentions the Croydon beacon ...

There was an airways beacon light located on the west side (but maybe the east) of Grant's Lane, about half a mile north of Staffhurst Wood road. Grant's Lane runs north towards Hurst Green and Oxted on the Kent / Surrey boarder. As far as I know the concrete footing of the light assembly is still there ... it was in '50 when I lived in Edenbridge.

What a wonderful spot for aircraft spotting that was - all sorts of traffic following the railway line to and from Dover and Ashford, both military and civilian ... and the daily commercial traffic, DC3s, 4s, 6s, Connies heading off to Europe from London.

I was lucky to thumb a flight on a Rapide chartered by the BBC on the last day that Croydon was open - it needed a test flight before carrying out filming and the pilot (whom I had helped to push the aircraft out) kindly asked whether I would like to come along for the ride. Having returned to earth I then found myself being introduced to O.P. Jones who was being interviewed for the evening news ...

Ah! Youthful memories ...

A couple more :

Vickers Viking 1 G-AHPJ Hunting Air Travel heavy landing undercarriage collapsed 23 May 1947.
Miles Aerovan G-AISG North Sea Air Transport,Brough,Stalled after a steep take off with 604 racing pigeons as cargo. Pilot killed plus 2 injured. 446 lbs overloaded. 14. Jun 1947

Croydon "why grass"
 

WHBM asks why so many of our pre war civil airfields were only grass.
Yes, the aircraft then operating would have needed to take off into wind,and as many of them were without nav aids or gyro instuments winter flying was limited,so the expense of tarmac was not deemed worthwhile.
Fast forward to WW2 and you have a requirement for heavy aircraft to operate at any time,and therefore cost is secondary.
Gatwick blossomed later as a charter "inclusive flights" field and had to expand after the war as Londons "second airport" but only had a runway from 1958.
I never quite understood why it was not developed more during the war, but it was one of the few to escape the multiple runway additions of its regional partners,although it had the steel and wire tracking laid to reinforce the grass surface.
Croydon had nowhere to expand and therefore was closed as Gatwick rose from its waterlogged past.
The problem from operating off soft ground is the lack of performance information that gives you the exact distance you may need to get off with a safety margin,couple this with most grass airfields having to reduce the TORA at times and it becomes a commercial no no.
Of course Croydons demise was Biggin Hills gain,so at least the huge expansion of private flying in the 60's had somewhere to operate from.

That's not really a reason. Croydon had a longer runway, and much more apron/hangar space, than London City has, even in the latter's current expanded form.

Croydon Space
 

WHBM, you seem to forget that the aircraft operating from Croydon in the 50's had nowhere near the performance of those at "stol port".
Not only that but Croydon sits in a "bowl", and whilst a runway would have helped it was never going to built after Gatwick was improved.
Even the RAF did not bother in improving facilities to any great extent,so i suspect with transport aircraft getting larger and heavier the writing was on the wall even then.Croydon could only have extended across the "Purley Way",but as this was a main route out of London,and on quite a slope, what was the point.With Heathrow,and Gatwick emerging as the future, Croydon was only ever going to continue as a club/light charter field,but no one was going to subsidise that with land in the area being eagerly sought for industry and housing.
Croydon has a proud history and at least is still a relatively open space,plus we have the terminal building and the Airport Hotel to remind us of its past glory in setting standards well ahead of its time.
Two world wars and the birthplace of our organised civil operations sounds a pretty good record to me,and is in good company with Kenley just up the road.
Pobjoy

Croydon aerodrome air safety
 

Hi folks from BDP Apr 9 2010

Dont know if this is already covered but when I joined KLM at Croydon
as a junior straight from school in 1947 there was talk about a DC3 that during a severe snowstorm crashed on take-off - killing 12 pax
- 3 of whom were nuns and burned to death.

Flying as SPENCER AIRWAYS - I beleive the a/c was overloaded (18 pax and 5 crew) and most likely stalled on take-off - crashing into another DC3 that was on the ground.

Both a/c were Czech registered - The date Jan 25th 1947.


On another point KLM did have a DC4 once land at Croydon but
never repeated - staying with DAKs untill they moved out to LAP
about 1948

During the war a Lancaster also attempted to land at Croydon
- regretably with fatal results

Air crash of De Havilland Rapide at Wallington.
 

I remember this incident extremely well, although I can not put an accurate date to it, other than to say it was 'post war' 1940s and I believe on a Sunday.

I then lived in Foresters Close, off Foresters Drive which flanked the western boundary of Croydon Airport. A De Havilland Rapide passed over our house after take off'. Looking out of the rear window of my parent's house I saw it descend, then a rising plume of black smoke.

The report of the crash was headline news in the National Press. The pilot, the only person on board, had tried to land in Stafford Road and could well have done - very little traffic in those days - had it not been for hitting the trolley bus wires as he nursed his stricken plane down. These slewed him towards a church which, from memory, had a full complement of children within. He then hit a dwarf wall, outside a garage, which slewed him again directly into a large tree separating him from the wall of the church.The plane exploded on impact, setting the tree alight and killing the pilot. The church wall was totally blackened by the heat but remained intact. Those the other side were in no way affected.

The front page news reports told the story of the 'miracle' tree, preventing a multitude of deaths and had pictorial drawings showing the descent, slewing and final impact.

Graham the Pipe

DH Rapide Crash at Wallington 13th Sptember 1952

A couple of contemporary Press Cuttings below.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...mber1952-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...mber1952-2.jpg

One11

Whilst researching the September 1952 Rapide crash I came across the following cuttings in the British press regarding the 1947 Dak crash at Croydon.

Fascinating reading from events sixty three-plus years ago.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-1.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-2.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-4.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-5.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-6.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-7.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-8.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...hJan1947-9.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...Jan1947-10.jpg

September 1952 Croydon DH Rapide Crash
 

My father was the pilot killed in the crash.

Does anyone have any more information about the history of the plane or pictures of the crash?

Jonathan Carne

Hi Jm

Regarding the Rapide crash in Wallington I am sorry I cannot add a lot to
what has already been outlined. Our family lived about a mile from the crash site - As stated the a/c crashed either on the Church or on the roof of the Garage showrooms next door. A Sainsbury supermarket now stands on the site of the church and Garage which I beleive went under the name of Rose Cars. My younger brother - Edward Phillips - who was working as a photographers assistant in business premises just the other side of the cross roads took several photos at the time - but I am afraid I have lost contact with him. If I come up with anything further I will advise.


Brian

According to the Gatwick Aviation Soc publication deHavilland Biplane Transports, the Rapide was G-AIZI and had been owned by Mr Carne at Elstree since 31 Mar 1952 when acquired from Reid & Sigrest Ltd. They took it from the RAF in Dec 1946 where it had served in Berlin as serial NR785. It had been built at Loughborough by Brush Coachworks in 1945.

The same source attributes the crash to power loss on the starboard engine.

The first film made by the Shell Film Unit (in 1936) was 'Airport', actually a day in the life of Croydon Airport. Marvellous film (although nearly 50 years since I last viewed it). Anybody else seen it?

Here's another view of Croydon Airport in the 30's.
YouTube - Croydon Airport in the 1930s

Croydon Airport - Lancaster crash
 

As a boy attending Wallington Grammer School for Boys one of my classmates lived in a house in Lavender Vale which was different from its neighbours because it was built on the site of the house where the Lancaster crashed. I understood it was trying to make an emergency landing at Croydon. My friend's family found various relics when digging in the garden. My mother worked for an insurance agent who lived very close by and helped try to rescue the inhabitants of the house and/or the aircraft crew.

Lancaster crash Croydon
 

...Further to this incident - my father was on duty at Croydon that night
as an Air Ministry policeman and witnessed the Lancasters attempts to land
- It had been badly shot up with flak damage over enemy territory and was attempting to land at Croydon but probably had to overshoot - probably
realising that Croydon was too small - We lived in the next road parrallel
with Lavander - Milton Rd and my father feared it had crashed onto or
near our house and so rushed back to Wallington in the early hours - We were asleep in the Anderson shelter at the time - and sadly we were
taken out to view the Lancasters funeral pyre.

...

Lancaster crash in Lavender Vale
 

In response to PASIR's comment, Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers gives some more details of the specific Lancaster, ND582. PASIR's account of that night also got picked up in another forum - Lancaster crash - Croydon? .

Whilst having a look for any pics of Hanno's incident at Entebbe, I came across this one. Apparently it's the remains of the sole Vickers Velox (or Vellox?) which came to grief in Wallington in Aug 1936. Location is given as "South View Road", though I can't find that name on current maps.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/H...1-75fa628c9b30

It could be Southview Gardens which is just off Sandy Lane South. My boss lives in Lavender Vale and is treasurer of the local cricket club, just a few yards away; will ask him if he knows anything.

He's mentioned the crash in Lavender Vale before!

The Vickers Vellox accident (at 02.00 on 10 Aug 36) is described in the book I mentioned earlier in this thread "Croydon Airport the great days", including a photograph similar to the above, taken from the same place (but with different people standing and windows open, so not the same photo).

Vickers Vellox :

Vickers 212 Vellox - passenger

The houses struck were 14 and 16 Hillside Gardens, which appear (on Google Streetview) to be the houses at the junction with Southview Gardens (the photograph was possibly taken from an upstairs window of the first house in Southview Gardens), and the houses were damaged more by fire than by the impact. A policeman was badly burned trying to extract the crew, all four of whom were killed. This road is to the west of the airfield, about 2 streets west of Foresters Drive, whose houses received a number of pre-war accidents.