Scimitar Crash nr Ben Vorlich 10 Nov 1959
 

Hi all

Does anybody have any information on this? I have a grid reference of
NN620163 and the following from an ejection history website (which appears to have a couple of mistakes - it's nowhere near Aberfoyle, ad as far as I know there's no Loch Cam, but there is a Loch Earn closeby):

10th November 1959http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/W...s/flags/UK.jpg
RN Scimitar XD281
'190/11'807 Sqn
Hydraulic failure.
Crashed in hilly country in Loch Cam/Ben Volich area, nr Aberfoyle, Perthshire

Lt. N. Grier-Rees ejected at 26,OOOft came down safely on the 2,300ft snow‑covered Ben Bhreac, then over several days walked 13 miles before reaching a farmhouse at Callander, Perthshire

I suspect that this might be a "Send three and fourpence" type report.

Those co-ords are very close to Lochan a Chroin on the SW side of Ben Vorlich.

Maybe Lochan got miss reported as Loch Cam?

Incidentally there are numerous Ben (or Beinn) Bhreac's in Scotland, including five in this area alone.

Thanks Flap40. There's also two Ben Vorlich's (at least)! I hopew to tey an check out the area in the coming months.

OS Sheet 57/ 620163.

Several days, 13 miles! Was no one looking for him? Was he injured?

There should be an interesting story here. Does anyone have any details?

I know an ex-Scimitar pilot, now living abroad -he seemed quite fond of the a/c ( as one becomes ) despite the fact that when I briefly researched the types' history my toes curled !

I'll ask him,

DZ

Lochan a' Chroin is near the summit of a separate Munro called Stuc a' Chroin which is a very prominent mountain 2km south-west of Ben Vorlich and 9km North of Callander. From many viewpoints in the Forth Valley, Stuc a' Chroin and Ben Vorlich are the most prominent mountains. Ben Vorlich is the more pointed mountain whilst Stuc a' Chroin is a more craggy and irregular shape. The grid reference given for the crash site is on the southern slopes of Stuc a' Chroin about 0.5km south-east from Lochan a' Chroin. There is no "Loch Cam" on the OS map in that area.

This web site; http://www.dundeeopenaward.co.uk/leadersresources/crashsites.htm confirms the grid reference of the crash site and states that there are small remains there.

There's a Ben Bhreac about 6km NW of Callander and 3km south of the crash site. If the pilot walked 13 miles to reach Callander he must have taken a detour but that's not surprising given the nature of the terrain in that area and the likely weather conditions.

I'm sure you will have seen/considered this...
Scimtar file

Well, I've just answered my own question. I had forgotten that I had signed up for the (currently) free Times Online Archive.

The story was in The Times on 12 Nov 1959 "Pilot walked 13 miles after baling out" "Sheltered in hut during blizzard" http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol...rykeywordText=

You will have to sign up to view the article, but here is the picture of the pilot:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...Grier-Rees.jpg

It wasn't several days, just overnight, but I'm sure that was bad enough in the Grampians in November.

He baled out in the afternoon, landed on a ridge in a snowstorm, walked for several hours, sheltered in a hut and then walked out to a farm the next morning. He was wearing an immersion suit, which helped keep him warm. A great stiff-upper-lip quote in the article An interesting point at the end of the article is that he reported ejecting near Kingussi, but landed 70 miles further south.

The Times Archive is an amazing resource - every article from every issue going back to 1785!

I42

India Four Two
 

As I've long suspected, you were on the mailing list way back then..:D

Well done sir - yes a 70 mile float from 26000 seems a 'little' optimistic -any takers?

PS interested as I've either climbed them or waterskied in the low bits - my first involuntary intake of salt tablets as a result of a collapse (age 11 guys) was on said Ben Vorlich. Then trials biked round most of it in the 70's

PS edited to add - doesn't he look (with obviously loaned check jkt) like one of the many 39 Steps Richard Hannay shots?? - and Callander was v close to the fictional/film locations...
"it's a one-horse dorp"....:E

With all due respect to Lt. N. Grier-Rees (I believe he achieved a much higher rank than that), and his family, naturally..
Mike

Mustpost said;
I agree. The problems started at 26,000 ft but the ejection was at 20,000ft according to the Times report. The weather forecast in the Times for the day of the accident predicted a westerly wind, and a strength of fresh to strong. It therefore seems highly unlikely that an ejection over Kingussie at 20,000ft would result in a parachute landing 70 miles south near Callander. Also, the pilotless Scimitar with hydraulic failure would have to have covered almost the same distance southwards, then manage to crash on a steep south-facing slope. I think it's more likely that the pilot ejected somewhere north-west of Callander.

Viking 1948 said;

Quote:

---

Lt. N. Grier-Rees ejected at 26,OOOft came down safely on the 2,300ft snow‑covered Ben Bhreac, then over several days walked 13 miles before reaching a farmhouse at Callander, Perthshire

---

My best guess based on the article in the Times, the report referenced above and my experience walking the mountains in that area would be that the pilot landed on Beinn Bhreac, then descended south or south west to the Allt Brhreac-Nic and followed this stream eastwards until he spotted the small reservoir near Arivurichardich where he sheltered in a hut. When the snow eased, he would then have followed track next to the Keltie Water southwards until he reached one of the farms 2 miles north Callander (perhaps Braeleny or Thomasgreen?). The distance is a lot less than 13 miles (more like 5 or 6), but I expect that the terrain and weather conditions would have made it seem like a much greater distance.

Even if he ejected at 23,000, the seat barometrics would not trigger seat separation and parachute deployment until 12,000, then subtract the 2,300ft of the mountain...

I found this info about the pilot via Google;
(source; Re: James Grier 1753 -1814 - Llanarthney, Wales )

There are some photos of him on HMS Eagle in 1966 on this site; On the flight deck (you'll need to scroll through the photos (scroll right about 20 times), but it's a good site with lots of interesting photos and information).

Also;
RootsWeb: GRIERSON-L Grier-Rees, marriage of 1980, widow of (Commander) Nigel Grier-Rees
807 Naval Air Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2005

And indeed when comparing photgraphs, this appears to be him standing to the right of Prince Phillip...
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/33305...5A1E4F32AD3138
Remarkable thing the web - I recently discovered I had an RAF uncle I knew absolutely nothing about.. (no jokes please, Dad's Army and all that:O)

I also found this site;
Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - Personal photos from the track
which mentions a "N Grier-Rees" winning a 1,172 formula race in 1957 in a Buckler 90. I'm not certain whether or not it's the same chap.

If you're wondering what a Buckler 90 is;
Ford sidevalve Specials Ashley, Buckler, Falcon, Tornado ++
Buckler Cars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Knew the gentleman concerned. The reason for the ejection was a double hydraulic failure (out of two), hence zero flying controls. The aircraft wouldn't have gone far in this condition.

There's another photo of him on HMS Eagle during the period 1970-72 here; http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/pdf-docs/eagle08.pdf . He's in the photo entitled "Air Department".

He had another claim to fame as this 1959 press cutting shows:


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/Image1-1.jpg

So that's two (well, three) hydraulic failures in one year. He must have been thinking "Oh no, not again" the second time around.

India Four Two
 

Couldn't agree more - my understanding is that the Scimitar was more prone to this sort of problem (or any) than the Hawk - but I look forward to be corrected by someone who flew either of them.
Fascinating little thread - well done viking1948:ok:

Ps lovely to see the Hawk displaying again.

PPS
the word 'little' is not appropriate.....

DZ, be interested to hear an elaboration. Know little of the type and its peccadillo's.

In a Scimitar had a single hyd failure in the circuit followed by the second failure a foot or two above the ground, controls seized but was on the runway. Firing all four guns generally lead to a single failure so two guns only was the norm. Never had a failure in a Sea Hawk although flown for less hours.

Scimitar et al
 

Speechless Two - You are almost right except that Bush actually ejected and lived for around 24 hours; he ejected so low that he and his parachute passed through the fireball of the crashed Hunter which fused the canopy cords together before the chute was fully deployed. His arrival on terra firma was therefore such that although he survived the ejection - and in the process became the only Fleet Air Arm pilot (and probably the only pilot) to have ejected three times he subsequently died of his injuries. RIP.

Nigel Grier- Rees also ejected from a Hunter at Brawdy,having previously dead-sticked another from Lossie with a fuel problem at a disused airfield nearby during which he managed to avoid a practising learner driver adjacent to and concrete blocks scattered on the runway before tensioning the barbed wire fence at the end of the runway with his nosewheel door. No damage to man or mount.

He died whilst pruning a tree in his orchard. RIP also. A very nice guy with whom I had the pleasure to serve. Married a friend of my wife's.

sailor - Scimitar et al
 

Many, many thanks guys for the poignant and 1st hand memories of our recent history - no I'm not writing a book/making the programme, but my late uncle had a senior position with EE designing the Frightning. My family tales have always included this sort of thing. Some day more work will have to be done to preserve memories like this.
Keep 'em coming...
Kind Regards
M

For those still interested there is a book published by Air Britain called the 'Scimitar file' - its got the lot! I bought my copy at the Museum shop at Yeovilton.

Regards to all the ex Scimitar drivers still around.

Memories
 

My first squadron ( I was an engineer) after completing apprentice course was 736 Sq which I joined in April 1962. I thought it was an awesome machine ( my contemporaries went to 738 & 764 -Hunters -paah !). I recall seeing Lt Cdr Grier-Rees name painted on the cockpit of one of the aircraft and the most recent additions to this thread brings to mind attending Lt Skrodski's funeral at the cemetery on the Milltown road. - not a week went by at Lossie ( as I recall) but something somewhere didn't spear in on approach/takeoff or on some hillside in Scotland .

Scimitar
 

Fascinating discussion on a very important aeroplane, from the point of view that it was the RN's first supersonic, nuclear-capable aircraft.
If I may add to the topic, I first flew the Scimitar (XD228. '613' 736 Sqdn.) on the 13th.September, 1963. I was 24.

To deal with a couple of points, firstly the aircraft used to lose fuel when parked because of the construction of the integral wing tanks. Basically the wing skin was lined with fuel-proof fabric. Constant movement/flexing led to the continuous weeping of fuel through the wing skin and looked like condensation on the outside. This just dripped all over hangar floor.
The second point concerns the hydraulic systems. The problem was that they operated at a much higher pressure (2500/4000psi) than I think ever before. Even the EMC motor /pump unit (PTO) operated at 4000psi. This of course led to numerous leaks and failures and, as has been mentioned, eventual failure of both systems led to control system failure. The highest operating pressure that I ever encountered subsequently, in a civilian aeroplane, was in the Douglas DC9. This was 3200psi but, in this case, always automatically idled at 1500psi when not in use.

The aircraft itself for a young pilot was amazing. The acceleration was astonishing after the Hunter and the rate of climb (at that time) with just inboard drops was initially about 15000ft/min.; time to 40000, about 4 mins.
Therein lies the rub with the Scimitar though - same engines virtually as the Lightning but no reheat. As the Americans were perported to have commented, "Who could have built an aircraft with all that power that wasn't supersonic in level flight" !

Oh, just a quick question for INDIA 42.

When NG-R went in, wasn't it nearly dark ? Hence the reason for ejecting over land.
If the situation was such that a safe landing could not be achieved, SOPs were normally to eject just off the coast if poss. for heli rescue.
If the sea temp.was ridiculous or daylight was running out, then Dava (spelling?) Moor was recommended as more survivable ?

I tried searching for some video of a Scimitar. I can't find any on YouTube at the moment but I found this flight simulator footage which is much better quality than I expected. It's worth a look; YouTube - AlphaSim Supermarine Scimitar F.Mk.1

Sleeve Wing,

The article says that he baled out "in the afternoon". He is quoted as having walked for four or five hours before taking shelter in a hut, but it is not clear how much of that time was in the dark.

Since he had a double-hydraulic failure, with no manual reversion, I expect his choice of ejection location was limited to wherever he found himself in the next few seconds ;)

> Since he had a double-hydraulic failure, with no manual reversion, I expect his choice of ejection location was limited to wherever he found himself in the next few seconds <

Yep, IF2, I'll go with that.
Seem to remember though that it was just a gear problem and gear up landings on the concrete were not recommended. Hence positioning to find somewhere to leave the aeroplane ? I'm open to other options though. :ok:

Sleeve Wing,

The article states that the problem occurred at 26,000' and the ejection was at 20,000'. If correct that doesn't really sound like a gear problem.

Slight thread drift, but since you are an ex-Scimitar pilot, you may be able to answer my question. At Farnborough in the early 60s, I remember seeing a buddy-tankering demo, which I think involved Scimitars. Did Scimitars have this capability, either tanker or receiver?

I42

One of the guys on my CFS course was RN (a Rhodesian called Hayden Thomas), who was recently off Scimitars (Skymeeters in Yarpi). From his accounts the aircraft did considerable duty as a tanker, one drawback was that it was possible to c**k up the switchery and give ALL your fuel away.:ugh:

Vixen pilots name was Tarver. Observers name was Stutchbury, I did some of his training.
There are/were some videos of Farnborough of the fifties and sixties that have Scimitar footage on them. 800 and 804 Squadrons feature. I occasionally watch them and have a little cry into my Scotch.

"Stumpy" Faulkner
 

Does anybody remember my ex – best mate Graham “Stumpy” Faulkner? Sadly he died 20+ years ago in a car accident but he used to regale me with tales of the Scimitar whilst we spent every day off for 4 years building a boat in the early 80s. Rumour had it he was involved in an ejection in the Indian Ocean but since his name doesn’t appear in the list of ejectees on the Project Get Out and Walk website I may have this confused in the mists of time.

Stumpy was a larger than life character – the life and soul of every party and a stalwart of the BA BAC 1-11 flight in Berlin where he supplemented his income by relieving all and sundry of their allowances in the hotel crew room of an evening at the interminable poker games.

I have seen a photo of him being presented to the Queen Mum at the recommissioning of a carrier (Ark Royal?) in Birkenhead (near where he was brought up) in the early 60s as a baby faced sylph shaped midshipman pilot – ten years later he was as wide as he was tall but a giant sized character and an excellent friend, long gone now but never forgotten. His funeral was the biggest piss-up I ever attended, as he would have wished, along with dozens of others and conducted by the RC padre from his time at Lossie.

I was on 807 at Lossie at the time the Grier-Rees incident happened. Think it was only a day before we heard of his recovery. Double hydraulic failure usually associated with the pumps but more likely a leak somewhere which emptied the systems (two pumps on each engine cross linked for single engine performance).
Lt Grier-Rees was a nice bloke who came back to a bit of a cheer from the lads as I recall.

Bit suprised no mention yet of the incident involving the Scimitar landing by Cmdr Russell (803) and his untimely death following the wire failure on the Victorious. I was on the flight deck at the time and felt like jumping in to get him out. It seems the rating dangling from the rescue chopper was unable to help not knowing how to eject the hood at the time.

Remember when the Scimitars Disbanded at Lossiemouth 65/66?? and were locked up in the hangar next to ours, 809 buccaneers. Use to sneak in for a look. Awesome sight I thought for a junior Pinkie. The Tankers had a beer foaming tankard painted on the Tail:ok:

For all its little niggles the Scimitar was a great aircraft and has a soft spot in my memories.
I joined 700X Sqdn at RNAS Ford in November 1957, the Scimitar trials unit. We worked in shifts around the clock at a pace for six months. The CO was Cmdr Innes (brother of Hammond Innes) and he kept a 'personal' Sea Vampire in the hangar as a run around when he wasn't in a Scimitar. I believe he had a reputation as a bit of a hard man from a pilots perspective but was a right gent to the ground crews. Sadly, he died in a road crash at the Devils Punchbowl, as I recall, just before 803 Sqdn formed up.
On the 28th May 1958 we all traipsed off the Lossiemouth and were redesignated 803 Squadron. Cmdr Des Russell became the CO and Lt Cmdr (E) Titford, who was also ex-700X, continued as the AEO. There were some great characters amongst the jockeys. Lt Cmdr Higgs (Senior 'P') become CO when Des Russell died after making a text book landing on the Victorious only to be let down by the ships arrester system.
Legendary flyers such as 'Ali' Barber, Ted Anson, Casperd, Beyfus, Beard and Leece all gave us plenty to do and talk about.
In February 1959, as the birth of my daughter was to coincide with the squdron going off to the US, I was given a 'pier head' jump to 807 Sqdn to continue sorting out the 'beasts' for a further year before transferring to the 764 Sqdn (Hunter) comfort zone !
The leaks we all remember, the drip trays the dustbins, etc., were mainly caused by small defects in the PRC coating inside the wings. When built in the factory the hollow wings were put on a tumbler rig and hot PRC injected into them and tumbled until all the inner surfaces were deemed to have been covered...or not ! I recall changing the stbd mainplane in 'C' Hangar on the Vic whilst the rest of the squadron went off to Malta for a jolly....the ultimate attempt to cure a fuel leak!

The Scimitar was certainly an aircraft built to test the skills of all who were brave enough to take them on.

Ah the forever Serviceable Hunters. We had 738 sqdn (Peagasus?) In the next hangar to ours at Lossie 809 Buccs. The tractor driver had all the A/C ranged on the line every morning "S" about 12 A/C. Max we ever did was 5!!! mind you we only had 8?

Scimitars Beer foaming Tankard:ok: http://usera.ImageCave.com/scouse/Un..._again!(1).jpg