TSR2 (Signed prints available.)
 

Came across this while surfing the 'net,

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/951799/the_raf_tsr_2/

She was beautiful. Makes me wonder what might have been if the political circumstances had been different.

Thanks for posting the link!

Thats great! :ok:

I've been searching for any video that showed the retract sequence for a long time so that I can get something just about realistic for the model I'm building.

TSR2/Lightning
 

Nice video, but I find it a pity that the end bit shows Lightning XN771 being broken up (presumably at Shoeburyness) and not the TSR2.

That brought a tear to my eye!
Thanks for posting..great stuff.

B:mad:y Hell MJ. That is one hell of a dramatic photo. She looks full of menace. If I saw that coming towards me in anger it would definitely need a change of underwear.

Yeah I can just picture it; gear up and plumes of black smoke from the back end.

Here's how the second prototype ended up:
http://www.pbase.com/glenns/image/31580180.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/glenns/image/31580182.jpg

TSR2
 

Mike Jenvey

Great Photos.

The TSR may have made a fine platform for a supersonic business jet


Tmb

I heard that the second prototype was programmed to fly the morning of the day that it was annnounced that the project was scrapped. The was a small problem on the pre-flight and it was delayed until the afternoon. Too late, it never flew.

When Dennis Healy pops his clogs I'm going to visit his grave..... with a full baldder!

A full what !!!!

Her wings would have numerous hard points added and she'd be flying low level subsonic missions.
Perhaps the cancellation was a more dignified end... Ironically.

Great shame that the TSR-2 never made it into production-thanks to short sighted narrow minded bigots, sorry political masters!
Another nail in the coffin for the once great British aviation industry.
Concorde and the TSR-2 stymied by politics, corruption and slick salesmen.

TSR-2
 

Like many other people I wish the TSR-2 had made it into operational service. For one thing if the TSR-2 had gone ahead as planned, I doubt the Tornado would have been developed, consequently, there would have been no Tornado F3 and instead the UK government might have opted instead to licence build the F-15 or F16, a vast improvement over the inferior F3. However, it's also rather simplistic to just blame the various politicians involved, particularly Dennis Healy, for the aircraft's cancellation. With very few exceptions, I loathe almost all politicians of any shade but many, many other factors also had a major contribution to the TSR-2 cancellation.

For a start the aircraft was far, far too complex and tried to be all things to all men – who today would really consider trying to design a 110,000lb aircraft that could operate from a 3,000ft hard grass strip with a full weapons load of fuel and weapons, fly in all weathers, day or night, at transonic speed at 200ft and a Mach 2.25 speed at 50,000ft, have a high-low-high radius of 1,000nms and be capable of carrying a 10,000lb internal payload – madness! Both the MOD and industry were responsible, the first for allowing all the various proposals to be carried forward and the second for agreeing to them and then also adding a bit extra, without really quantifying the risks and additional costs involved.

Poor project management, partly the result of the forced merger of various aviation companies, allowed costs to run completely out of control. What started as a £16M project rose to an estimated £740M and would probably eventually exceeded £1B and have crippled the rest of the Defence Budget as a result.

Too many fingers were in the pie. This included firstly the Ministry of Supply (later the Aviation Ministry) as well as the Air Ministry and industry. This resulted in far too many committees, sub committees and sub-sub committees with the authority to make changes to the design, without having to also take responsibility for the additional costs and complexity involved.

The Americans actively campaigned against the TSR-2 to try and protect their F-111 that was then under development. They targeted Australia, the only potential export customer for the TSR-2, with all kinds of spurious claims about the superiority of the F-111 and, as Australia was moving away from close ties to the UK and was keen to establish a closer relationship with the USA, they fell for it and brought the F-111. The F-111 entered service with Australia six years later and at three times the original cost – a bargain.

The CDS at the time was that over-promoted charlatan Lord Louis Mountbatten, probably the worst CDS of all time and he has some stiff competition in that department from some of the RAF and Army incumbents over the years. As CDS Mountbatten should have remained neutral to the TSR-2, instead he actively rubbished the aircraft at every opportunity, particularly to a visiting delegation from Australia. In this campaign he was assisted by the MOD Chief Scientific Advisor, Sir Solly Zukermann.

Finally and probably most fatally, many senior officers in the RAF were opposed to the TSR-2 from early on in the programme on the grounds of cost. As time went on this group grew larger and larger until it eventually included even the CAS himself, ACM Sir Charles Elworthy, and it was he who eventually recommended to the PM that the programme be cancelled. Perhaps the RAF has learned something from the demise of the TSR-2, particularly the need for everyone to be ‘onboard’ a project from the start right through to the end and for the dissenters to be actively sidelined.

I’ve read all the books available about the TSR-2 and, whilst they all have some interesting thing to say, they all lack some of the background detail. In my opinion if you want to read the definitive book on the TSR-2 try and get hold of a copy of ‘TSR-2 with Hindsight’ published by the RAF Historical Society in 1998 ISBN 0951982486. This publication records the proceedings of a seminar at which political, military and industry figures closely involved in the TSR-2 programme freely express their views on the aircraft and why it never entered service.

Heimdall

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/tsr2.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/sk/gatial/Files/Tsr21.jpg

If only...

N:ok:

Those who supported TSR-2 should have observed events at Avro Canada before 20th February 1959 ("Black Friday").

The remarks attributed to Sir Sydney Camm that ALL aircraft possess four features, span, length, height and politics and that TSR-2 simply got the first three right could equally have applied to the Avro Arrow.

The "winner" of the TSR-2 fiasco was of course the Blackburn Buccaneer.

Referring to the cancellation of the TSR2 and others in 1965 ....

"FORTUNATELY this wholesale bout of cancellations brought to an end 10 years of the worst mismanagement of the RAF's equipment and of the British aircraft industry that could possibly have been arranged"

Sir Stanley Hooker - Not Much of an Engineer (p148 paperback edition).

According to Sir Stanley (who should know) some of the requirements for the TSR2 were far, far too complicated.

As Heimdall says - there was much more to it than a few political decisions.

Did you know that Sir Stanley fought Reginald Maudling in 1957 to save the Olympus engine - the government CANCELLED it to use the Conway ONLY.

Bristol developed the early Olympus at their own expense!

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...lCosford-1.jpg


The TSR we could afford (in front of the one we couldn't) :)

I thank you for posting the link.........just a reminds me that we did once have a aircraft industry.

As a learned poster has already hinted - I wonder where we would be now regarding aircraft for the Royal Air Force .......perhaps best summed up by the backing track to the video.........Mad World

I will shortly, once again, be offering for sale prints of XR219 at a price of £36 each (incl of p&p). These prints are signed by Roland 'Bee' Beamont and the original was painted by a PPRuNe member a few years back. The proceeds go to the PPRuNe Fund.

When I can source the cardboard tubes I will take orders for them.

Watch this space as they say!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ed_print-1.jpg

PPP

Presumably you could approach a, errr, 'gerbil fancier' to source suitable cardboard tubes.....:eek:

Hi
I was one of the lucky people to see a TSR2 Fly.
As a kid we lived in Thruxton and watch it fly over from b Down. as the airfield had to stop flying when the TSR2 was airbounre :)

What a novel idea BEags. But I think the 'gerbils' at PC World might have some. I hate that company! :ugh:

Viola, #20: Did you know that Sir Stanley fought Reginald Maudling in 1957 to save the Olympus engine - the government CANCELLED it to use the Conway ONLY. Bristol developed the early Olympus at their own expense!
Frank Owner invented BE.10 in 1946 and attracted immediate MAP funding. There were no R&D incentive prices in UK turbines till 1962.
In 1956 Conway was design baseline for Victor B.2, Olympus 6 for Vulcan B.2. RR offered MoS a Conway for Vulcan 2 at a fixed unit production price, which was unprecedented before type test. MoS Maudling enjoyed an unexpected competition, where Bristol was obliged to do the same. MoS chose both engines, spreading risk, losing scale economy.

tornadoken - point taken!

Sir Stanley was obviously writing from his perspective.

I suppose the point I was indirectly making was that the movement from Britain having a world class aviation industry in the early 1950s to the minor league (apart from Concorde) by the late 1960s was the result of a lot more than a particular bunch of politicians cancelling the TSR2 (which was again more complicated as Heimdall says).

For TSR2 'what ifs?' (incl. GW1) try Jozef Gatial's excellent website: PlanesPictures.

I/C

I was impressed by the example at Cosford - it makes a Tornado look like a silly toy.

I was lucky enough to actually see several of the Tsr2s flying along with chase planes around the Northern end of the Ribble Valley and using what I now know to be turning points of the huge limestone bulk of " Ingleborough" hill I was at school in nearby Settle and comming from a Raf family had a huge interest in all aircraft.

My later Pater in law actually worked on the originalls and helped to repair the Duxford Tsr by making by hand panels to fit where holes had been made or panels not replaced.

Our lectures at the time pointed to Sunny Jim being threatened by the US government not to make this aircraft and buy one of theirs of the shelf I think I remember the F4 or F1-11 , no doubt some body will correct my old political lessons.

Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb

The story is well documented and it is abundantly clear that the TSR2 was caught in heavy cross-fire.

The Labour Govt couldn't afford the number of projects (the Tories would have cancelled them if they'd remained in office), the US were desperate to put pressure on the UK to cancel the project and buy the US types. Add to the mix, the Admiralty, in the shape of Lord Mountbatten wanted to ensure their role into the future.

There is a DVD of the story, and it is sickening to watch Roy Jenkins and Denis Healey denying that it was their fault.

It would be good to put together the balance sheet showing how much was wasted chasing the TSR2 replacements.

The worst of it is that Govt still hasn't learnt any lessons on aircraft procurement.

Oh, and if it hadn't been for the rock-solid contract with France, Concorde would have gone as well

In an earlier posting I was involved in moving the TSR2 that ended up in Cosford. In fact we put it on the trailers as you see in the photo in Henlow Beds.
RAF Henlow was a training airfield and how the TRS2 came to be there I don't know.:confused:
There were two hangers right at the bottom end of the airfield by the Hitchin Road.
We moved it across from the bottom of the airfield to the top of the airfield where the main hangers were and it was loaded onto the low loader as in the photo.
The second hanger had Shackletons in it being chopped up.:hmm:
We moved the TSR on 4 Hoverplatforms with airbags and the whole ensemble was towed to the top by 2 tractors.
The Hoverplatform recovery system was made by AeroDocks in Southhampton
and worked very well:):ok:

RAF Henlow was the storage airfield for the reserve aircraft of the RAF Museum collection at Hendon.

ZH875
When we got there the aircraft was complete and on its wheels.
I guess they must have trucked it in and then re-assembled it.
I dont know if you were familiar with Henlow?
The hangars at the top were typical solid brick built RAF hangers just as shown in the picture of the aircraft on the transporter.
The couple of "hangars" at the bottom were just the Nisson hut type.
It was almost as though th aircraft had been "hidden":hmm:

Peter - RB
 

You could not have seen several TSR2's over the Ribble Valley as only one TSR2 (XR219) ever flew. Two other examples were complete prior to the project cancellation (XR220 & XR222) but sadly neither made it into the air.

You must have been fortunate enough to see XR219 several times.

An aviation 'Old Boy' told me many years ago that the Henlow TSR2 was brought there under secrecy of preservation, because instructions had been given to destroy it. As a young teenager I was lucky enough to gain access to the hangar in question and crawled all over the airframe (I was an Air Cadet at that time). Alongside the airframe were many crates of spares; all bagged in ploythene bags with a distinctive TSR2 label attached. I recall being very tempted to 'nik' a small bag with a bolt in it; just for the TSR2 label! A spare engine also lay alongside the airframe. Whether or not it's true or not I don't know, but our guide told us that the aircraft was very capable of flying again (at that time).

I have a couple of fabulous pictures of the aircraft, taken from the 'chase' Lightning and with Salisbury in the background; however, I'm not sure how to post them here?

The hangar in the picture was known at Henlow as 'The Pickle Factory'. The story was that it had been built back to front so that the doors faced away from the airfield and that left the person responsible for its construction in a 'pickle'. It has now been demolished.
I saw the TSR-2 sitting on its wheels but by the time I had been to work and then bought some film, it was in pieces on the trailer. The second trailer carrying the wing had already left.

TSR,

I quite possibly worded my reply badly, I only ever saw one TSR2 with a chase plane but saw the TSR2 with chase plane on several occasions on different days, nearly always flying in a Northerly direction up the Ribble Valley and turning or starting to at a point just south of Penyghent from there over the top and side of Ingleborough and then streaking out towards the coast, and obviously down to Warton, was very impressive to see such fast A/c over such wonderful terrain! Whilst my school was in the Settle Valley we used to do twice weekly cross country runs up to Giggleswick Scar and over towards Little Stainforth, at the top of Gigg Scar the view is breathtaking!!

PeterR-B
Vfrpilotpb

l

Chitterne

Yes that was the story we heard as well:) and the situation did seem to confirm that.
Was there a Shackleton in the next hagar?

wub.
Yes the bottom hangars had an access gate down on the Hitchin Road.
Memory fading ! what year was that ?

GotTheTshirt
The date stamp on my original slide says 1975, I believe it was April

Zeb
The first thing thats strike you about the TSR2 when you see it is its size.... much bigger than you expect. Some 60% longer than the Tornado and not far short of the length of a Vulcan.

If you compare weights an empty TSR2 came in at about 25,000 kg not far short of the max take off weight of the Tornado at 29,000 kg and some 2.5 times the empty weight of the Canberra it was supposed to replace.

The size no doubt reflects the demanding, and probably too ambitious, specification.