Falklands Crash Sites
 

I am researching an action that took place on 24 May 1982. Two sea harriers intercepted 'ORO', a section of three daggers, north of Pebble Island late in the forenoon. The lead sea harrier shot down two of the daggers over the sea on an easterly heading. These were believed to be C-419 and C-410. The third and lead dagger , C-430, turned hard right and was hit by a sidewinder from the second sea harrier as he passed about south. His aircraft was observed impacting the high ground south of Pebble Island.
I have read various contradictory accounts of who was in which aircraft and several contributors to the internet have claimed sighting the wreckage of C-410 onshore.
Would anyone who has spent time in the Falklands and who might have visited any of the crash sites care to shed any light?
Many thanks
ES

There was an interesting article in 'Flypast' magazine about the Falklands war crash sites a few months back.

You've probably seen this version from the Argentine Air Force website?

http://www.fuerzaaerea.mil.ar/conflicto/dias/may24.html

'Tres M-5 Dagger, indicativo "Oro", armados con dos bombas retardadas por paracaídas. Tripulación: Capitán Raúl Díaz (C-419), Mayor Luis Puga (C-410) y Teniente Carlos Castillo (C-430). Despegaron de San Julián a las 10:24 hs.'

http://www.fuerzaaerea.mil.ar/index_win.html

I can't imagine them mixing up the pilots and airframes. I was always under the impression that it was Dagger serial C-410. The above info would make it C-430.

I was in the Falklands during 1998 when the nose section of an IAI Dagger was found. It was found if I remember correctly near First Mount, Elephant Bay. The wreckage was discovered by chance by a hotelier who was out walking in the hills. It appeared to be the nose section as the remains of Lt. Carlos Castillo were found. I have no idea if the wreckage was left intact or removed. Possibly the Falkland Islands Museum might be able to assist?

Quoting from the 1986 "Falklands: The Air War":

"Both of Auld's Daggers fell into the sea north of Pebble Island, while
Smith's impacted on the western edge of Elephant Bay on the slopes of
First Mount. . . Castillo therefore appears to have been the been the
pilot killed in the First Mount wreck."

And in the individual a/c histories:

"C-410 . . . Brought down over Pebble Island . . . . Teniente Castillo
was killed in the explosion. The wreck site has not been positively
identified but may be that found in the First Mount area (UD 170160)."

I remember reading in the RAF News an article on the funeral service of Lt. Castillo. An article appeared in a UK aviation magazine which, if I remember correctly, had details of the 'kill' markings found on the nose section from when it was last in Israeli service and an Israeli call sign plate found in the
cockpit from when the aircraft was an IAI Nesher.

I no longer have the magazine, but the call-sign plate could assist the match up between the Nesher serial and subsequent Dagger serial?

I think that the aviation magazine was Aviation News/Air Pictorial?

http://www.payhost.net/aviation/acat...Pictorial.html

There was certainly a Dagger on the ground to theSouth of Pebble Island and to the North West of Port Howard immediately after the war as we used to fly over it quite a lot (if/when I find my map of the time I might be able to give you a better position). However, I don't know how many were shot down overland during the conflict, so this could have one of any of them. It may also have been this one that was 'relieved' of it's tail and a few other bits by the guys and ended up in 18 Sqn crewroom.

http://www.clarin.com/diario/1998/09/01/t-01401d.htm

A very quick on-line translation

'16 YEARS DESPUES: IT WAS DEMOLISHED DURING THE 1982 WAR
They will analyze in London the DNA of the pilot found in the Falklands

The lieutenant governor of the islands confirmed
The results will take several weeks
The Chancellery waits for the British report
And the mother of the probable pilot requests that the rest are brought to the continent.

ANA GERSCHENSO
The lieutenant governor of the islands the Falklands, Andrew Gurr, advanced to Bugler that just in several weeks will be able to settle down the identity of the rest found in an Argentine airplane that it fell in the Borbón island during the war of the Falklands. When it is verified tomorrow - between today and that the found rest are human, tests will be sent to London to make the DNA analyses, that allow to identify the body, said Gurr.En Buenos Aires, nevertheless, the spokesman of the British Embassy took care to keep plus the diplomatic forms of the case. Once we have the certainty that the rest are human we will inform to him immediately to the Argentine Chancellery, to know what we will do of there in ahead, said funcionario.Gurr, in charge of the government before the absence of its holder, Richard Ralph, added that according to the first examination that made the Police in the place, the found parts would belong to a Dagger airplane. The 24 of May of 1982, three Dagger airplanes were demolished by two Harrier in the Borbón island. Two of the pilots survived, but third, the first lieutenant Carlos Castle, to desapareció.Ayer, an equipment of investigation to the control of the malvinense inspector, Jonnathan Butler, returned to rise a small plane in Argentine Port to later land twenty minutes in the island Borbón, a zone descampada with a surface composed by crowd, stones and water. The group, next to officials of the court of the magistrate Keith Watson, in charge of the cause that was opened as soon as the airplane by kelper was found that it walked by the place, it was all the day taking samples from the rest and examined the ship to determine fehacientemente that is a Dagger.Los results on if the rest they are or nonhuman they are known between last morning and (for today and tomorrow), confirmed Gurr to Bugler, and confessed that to this height the data is almost one certeza.La Chancellery and the Air Force emitted two official notices of press yesterday to emphasize that they will only give official information when they conclude the investigations in Port Argentinean. The official notice of the Palace San MartÃ*n reveals that it is in contact with the enemy with the British Embassy and the General staff of the Air Force to the effects to obtain greater precisions than allows to identify the airship and therefore to that outside his pilot, so that into that way it is possible to be informed to familiares.En the Olive town, in Cordova, the family of the first lieutenant Castle waits for with anxiety the moment for counting on greater certezas.Onelia Guebel de Castillo, mother of the hero of the Falklands, said yesterday to this newspaper which if the British and Argentine suspicions are verified, for me he means that my son has died hoy.Onelia Guebel demanded the rest of the aviator, who in 1982 was 25 years old. To my son I want it in the continent with me. That me they bring it, as is, but I want it here, requested the woman of 68 años.Onelia tells that in one of the letters that to him his son wrote from the base of Port San Julian, in the province of Santa Cruz, said to him that if demolished it it were not going to leave the airplane by anything of the world. Then the greater Luis Pugas, than flew on a par of the Dagger de Castillo, confirmed that he saw when a missile demolished the apparatus and that the pilot could not eyectarse.En the entrance of the Olive town see two airplane wings, a monument to the aviator who was born in those calles.Desde that I listened to the first news on the finding of an Argentine pilot in the Falklands I thought that he was my son; all the information agrees with which we knew on him, her mother says to Onelia.Para, Carlos Castle was enamoring with the air, of the airplanes, but almost at the end of his studies in the Military aviation school, in Cordova, she was on the verge of letting study from fear of not being able to make specific his dream. It said to me, if in the last medical examination says to me that I have some problem and I cannot be pilot, I die, remembered Onelia.Y continued emocionada:Yo responded to him since we always make the mothers: Estudiá, tenés that to have a title, later is important. And he insisted, I am pilot or nothing, recuerda.En times of peace was in Tandil, seat of the Sixth Aerial Brigade. There they saw for the last time its parents it, in February of 1982. It waited for civilian dress while their companions shone the uniform. It always said us that inside of the base she was military man and outside Carlitos, evoca.Antes of which the squadron Gold was transferred to the south called by telephone to Olive. It spoke with all we, as if outside a goodbye; and it said to us: If anybody does not help us, they go to us to pulverizar.ENTREVISTA: FABIAN GARCIA. (Cordova Agency) '

There is also this model article. It give completely contradictory info on pilots and serials, but has an image of a Dagger wreck. Possibly 430? I can't quite make out the serial. There is a contact e-mail at the bottom.

http://hsfeatures.com/features04/daggerpb_1.htm

The book 'Airloss', by Fred Clark, has the following details:

Dagger C410, shot down at 1500 by Sea Harrier ZA193, 1 fatality, wreckage on 1st Mt Pebble

Dagger C419, 1415, by XZ457, no fatality, aircraft in sea

Dagger C430, exactly as C419.

No details of who was flying the aircraft though.

Pebble Island Lodge has the following. It might be a lead for the positive identification of the Dagger wreckage?

http://www.pebblelodge.com/history.htm

'Argentine aircraft: North-east of First Mountain there are two crash sites with the scattered wreckage of Argentine Daggers. These multi-role fighter/bombers were both shot down by Royal Navy Sea Harriers in May 1982. Further to the west near Marble Mountain, a memorial commemorates 5 Argentine airmen whose Learjet crashed in the area after it was shot down by H.M.S. Exeter on 7 June 1982.'

http://www.pebblelodge.com/contact.htm

Falklands Air Action 24 May 1982
 

A million thanks for all your replies.
I was in the second sea harrier in this action.
The account of Capt Diaz who was leading the group of three daggers indicates that Castillo was on his left in C-419 and Puga on his right in C-410. Puga Shouts a warning that Castillo has been hit by a missile which Diaz initially does not understand. Diaz subsequently looks to his right and sees a second missile about to hit Puga. He transmits a warning to eject but he witnesses a massive explosion destroying Puga's plane. These were the two AIM9L's fired by Andy Auld in the lead sea harrier. Diaz, in C-430, then goes into a hard right break clearing his wing in the process. This is what I witnessed as I locked on to him with one of my missiles. I then fired and the AIM9 flew straight across the turn and hit him at about the ninety. I saw the plane impact the ground to the south of Pebble Island and, what I thought, was an unsuccessful ejection attempt.
As he has written the story it looks like me made it OK.
The confusion lies in who was in which aircraft.
ES

I've posted on the forum at

http://www.acig.org/

Hopefully a positive tie-up can be made between Dagger serials and pilots?

So far I've had no luck on the track down of the Air Pictorial/Aviation news article on another forum of Lt. Castillo's wreck.

Visited this crash site a few years ago, the one interesting fact was that we found the wing section which was not carrying pukka Argentinian Air Force markings, the argentinian flag had been painted over the top of a thin layer of whitewash. Beneath the whitewash were IAF markings.

I wonder if the 'white' is what happened to the paint applied on the 24th May due to fading over the years?

Apparently the yellow ID markings were covered over with light blue paint?

http://hsfeatures.com/features04/daggerpb_1.htm

C-430 on the 24th with yellow markings covered over

http://hsfeatures.com/features04/ima...erpc_c_430.jpg

'During the early hours of the 24th the maintenance crews had to travel to the town to get green paint to cover the ineffective yellow bands with green paint. The only one they found available was light blue. They found that the surface of the planes was covered in frozen mist, so they had to remove the ice first with newspaper and then apply the coats of paint. This process gave origin to the well-known turquoise color of the A-4Cs and the Daggers of “La Marinete”. It can be seen in the picture, taken shortly before C-430’s last mission, that there is some yellow showing through.'

I'm still trying to track down the magazine. I remember there was some Israeli kill markings showing Arab air force roundels around the cockpit. These marking were showing through as the paint had weathered.

Possibly, I've got a photo somewhere, I'll see if I can find it and scan it in.

I have now received several messages from Colonel Raul Diaz and have, more or less, figured out what happened.
Diaz was leading 'Oro' formation with #3 (Puga) on his right and #2 (Castillo) on his left. Puga shouts that number 3 has been hit by a missile (himself?) He actually means #2! This is why Diaz looks and turns to his right and sees a missile about to hit #3. He shouts to him to eject but the missile hits a moment later. These were the two AIM9L's fired by Andy Auld. Both these Daggers crashed into the sea. Castillo was killed and Puga spent some five hours swimming but eventually made it ashore and survived. Meanwhile Diaz continues his hard turn to the right and is hit by my missile as he is passing south. He ejects at the last minute and his aircraft crashes on land south of Pebble Island. Despite being badly injured in the ejection he is subsequently rescued and survives the war.
I probably contributed to the confusion as I reported I had hit "number 3", when in fact I had actually hit "the third Dagger". History then went on to record that I had hit 'Oro3' which was also incorrect!
Many thanks again for the replies and information. If anyone has any photos of the wreck sites I would be very interested to see them.
ES

Edmund,
This thread is a little prune gem, I hope it stays at the top. Thanks for sharing the accounts of what happened.

ES,

Many thanks for posting an update. I've sent you a PM.

I've had no luck with tracking down the magazine showing an image of the Dagger nose section found in 1998. Lt. Castillo's remains were found in the nose section. I'll check out the aerojumbles/stalls at some of the airshows next year.

Regards

TJ

Thanks for this T.
Interestingly, I have evidence that it was not in fact Lt Castillo who was found but someone from a previous raid. I will check my my facts and post the story as soon as I have got it all together.
ES

ES, we've spoken I will get the photo scanned this afternoon. Without going into gory details, I stayed with a local who claimed that the body of one of the pilots was in wreckage on Pebble Island.

ES,
No probs. I did a further search on the web. The remains were initially thought to be of Lieutenant Castillo, but were later found to be of Lieutenant Hector Ricardo Volponi who was flying Dagger C-437.

http://www.escolar.com/NewsArchives/...681_esen.shtml

ES,

Could you tell us something about your second (Skyhawk) kill on 8th June please? The books that I have lack detail, other than recording the event. I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you could fill in the blanks.

Cheers,

Navaleye

The story of the 2 Skyhawks that went missing on May 9 is equally as interesting. HMS Coventry reporting engaging 2 A4s escorting a C-130 on a supply mission in to Port Stanley. Coventry engaged at 38 miles with Sea Dart but claimed no kills at the time. Later two A4s were claimed, however the Argentines claimed they flew into cliffs on South Jason island in bad weather. Do the wreck site visits substantiate any of these claims?

Goodness me, Naval, it is a rather long story but, at the risk of being 'moderated', here goes.
8 June 1982
Dave Morgan and I were launching from HMS Hermes on the first of our 'duskers' sorties to carry out a CAP south west of Stanley in the immediate overhead of HMS Galahad. I can't remember the actual figures but I think the transit was about 200 miles and the CAP was initially at 10,000 feet. Galahad had been hit by bombs earlier and I remember a thick cloud of black smoke pouring out of her and the aft end literally glowing red with the intensity of the fires below decks. We were right at the end of our time on task and about to depart back to Hermes when Dave spots four aircraft below. His actual words were something like "F..k me Dave! Four mirages! Follow me down!" (Subsequently turned out to be A4's.) We were 180 degrees out in a turn at the time and he promptly disappeared from sight into the gathering gloom. I rolled and pulled and went for the deck at full power calling Dave for the attack heading. He came back with something like "240" and I pulled out at about 150 feet doing just over 600 knots heading south west. I still couldn't see anything but a few seconds later Dave opened up in quick succession with both his sidewinders. I saw these missiles hit the back two A4's and thereby got visual with Dave. One of the A4 pilots had ejected and I very nearly picked him up on my wing in his parachute! Dave was then closing the third A4 and opened up with his cannons. From the bullet splashes on the water I finally got a 'tally' on the target and as Dave pulled off and out of the picture I got a good IR lock from one of my AIM 9L's. I reckoned I was at about 50 feet at this stage still doing about 615 knots and I still couldn't put the A4 on the horizon so he must have been quite low. The range looked a bit excessive and I remember hesitating for a second or two trying to assess whether it was worth taking the shot. At that very moment Sharkey Ward comes on the radio and says "OK, we are coming in from the south and taking over!" or words to that effect. This caused me to completely loose the bubble! Although I had seen Dave shoot at this target I hadn't positively identified it and I had an instant of pure panic as I questioned if it was actually Sharkey or Steve Thomas I had in my sights. Well, I fired anyway and this prompted "Who fired that shot?" from Sharkey and for a ghastly moment I thought I had shot at Steve. Then Steve came back with "It wasn't me, Boss" and I heaved a sigh of relief. The missile tracked the A4 and then seemed to flame out. I was fairly certain it wouldn't hit but then at the very end of its trajectory it detonated and destroyed the target.
As an interesting aside this action left us both very short of fuel and a recovery to the ship which was quite a bit later than the planned duskers! I don't even want to contemplate what I shut down with but I remember the flashing bingo lights from a very long way out from landing!
ES

Capt Raul Diaz's Parachute
 

As a post script I have been contacted by Allan of the Pebble Island Lodge in the Falklands and Capt (now Colonel) Diaz's parachute has been found in a nearby house.
He has sent me several photos and I vividly remember the orange of the chute and wondering why it had no camouflage panels like ours.
For 25 years I thought his parachute only just cleared the cockpit without deploying.
Photos available when I can figure how to upload
ES

Edmund,

To post a photo:

First you need to have the photo hosted online - photobucket (www.photobucket.com) is where I keep my few.

Then, when posting the photo here:

In the message composition window, click on the second icon in from the right (next to the speech bubble)

A pop-up window then appears here asking you to enter the location of your image.

To prepare for this, you will have see on your photobucket page a box saying 'direct link'. You'll have copied that link, and you then paste it into the pop up window (taking care not to duplicate the 'http' that's already there, and ensuring that '[IMG]' and [\IMG] don't appear at the start and end (if you've copied the direct link, you won't get this).

Once done, press 'OK'.

So, I have an image at http://img.photobucket...11-03067b.jpg (I've cropped this to fit this window, so you won't be able to link to it).

To post it, I click on the image icon and the box opens.

Now, I paste the URL in to the box, and....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...-11-03067b.jpg

Navaleye

I can't really comment on the events of 9th May 1982, I'm not a historian. What I can say, however, is having been to South Jason on several occasions, the Skyhawk wreckage is spread over a large distance on the north face of the island, consistent with a high speed CFIT. If you take that fact, coupled with the island's position and orientation, it would seem to me that the Argentine view would make most sense.

I hope I am not overworking this subject.
Some very interesting feed back is coming back from my Argentinean Air Force contacts. I don't think these people have an axe to grind and, indeed, I think they flew an incredibly courageous war.
I believe the first true air to air combat with an absolutely classic "Eyeball - Hook" manoeuver was carried out by Steve Thomas and Paul Barton of 801 NAS on 1st May 1982. Paul confirmed a Fox 2 and although, Steve fired in range, his target disappeared into cloud before he could confirm the kill.
History records that the Mirage was so badly damaged by the missile hit that it had to attempt an emergency landing at Stanley Airport and was subsequently shot down by triple A from his own side.
The Argentinean version, according to ATC transcripts and other pilots who were airborne at the time, is that the Mirage was in perfectly OK shape but had run short of fuel by using A/B in the combat. The pilot had announced that he was completely airworthy but short of fuel to get back to the mainland. He considered an approach to Stanley a better option than ejecting and losing the valuable asset.
I have no idea of the landing performance of the Mirage but I did once have the pleasure of flying in the back of a Saab Viggen (Excuse spelling). The pilot demonstrated and incredibly short landing using the power against drag of a delta wing so I can believe this was serious possibility.
As we know the poor fellow was shot down by his own side and didn't survive.
I am wondering if anybody who has served in the Falklands subsequently can give me any information on this particular crash site. It would be very interesting to see if the aircraft actually had sidewinder damage. (I understand from the analysis of the A4 I shot down on 8 June, it is quite unequivocal.)
On the same day there are some substantial differences about how the combat between Martin Hale and Tony Penfold went down against Ardiles.
I will post the details of this later.
Also under investigation some very interesting different views of the Sharkey Ward and Steve Thomas attack on three Daggers on 21 may. No doubt about the result but some very different opinions from Sharkey's book about how it really happened.
ES
(Stay Tuned)

Does Sharkey have some opinions? I hadn't noticed ;)

Footage exists of the attempted forced landing by Captain Cuerva at Stanley. It was filmed from a distance by an Argentine camera crew and used in various TV programmes about the conflict. The Mirage appeared to cartwheel as it impacted the ground.

A Falkland Islander was taken to the wreckage by an Argentine officer. The Argentine officer was adamant that they had just shot down a Harrier and was keen to prove it. He relented when he himself witnessed the Argentine Flag on the fin. It was recounted in his small booklet that he wrote and locally published on the Islands. For the life of me I can't remember his name, but I remember reading it when on detachment down there. It was a small reference booklet about the air losses on both sides.

TJ

Thanks, Teeej.
Any idea where the crash site was?
ES

No probs. Sorry, I don't have an exact location. The footage was shown on the History Channel quite recently. I'll see if I can find it on You Tube. I remember the sea being visible.

Regards

TJ

Keep it up ES
 

Great thread ES. Very interesting and looking forward to your updates.

I concur. An absolutely fascinating thread with unique insight. Most definitely not overworked. :ok:

TEEJ

The booklet you refer to is;

Falklands Conflict 1982
Airloss
by Fred Clark

It was designed and printed at the Flakland Islands Government Printing Office, Copy right 2001, Fred Clark

Hope this helps.

I bought my copy (for £3) in the NAAFI shop (during my time on TriShaws, having previously been on 1312 Flt many moons ago). It may still be available.

Klubman,

That's the one! Thanks!

Cheers

TJ

Some interesting stuff.
Apparently, Cuerva was in deep wing rock as he flew directly over Stanley town heading east. He turned to the right, I guess to position for a left circuit to land on the westerly runway and was then shot at by every gun available. He fired a prolonged burst of cannon shortly after being shot at. Stanley residents picked up the cannon cases from their gardens!
He and his aircraft crashed in the middle of a minefield south of the airstrip.
It sounds to me he was only just in control and that Steve's missile had done him some damage.
Can anyone add any information?
ES

As far as I understand it, although Garcia Cuerva tried to avoid the missile, the missile exploded close to the rear, rupturing the fuel tanks and damaging the control runs. The TPS-43F radar guys told him to eject but he chose to head for Stanley even though they had been under attack. The Command Post was notified of his intentions but failed to advise the AA guys in time. Garcia then jettisoned his missiles and there after was shot down by the AA guys who believed that they were being attacked.

What a fantastic thread! Enjoyed your posts Mr Spencer!:ok:

The Viggen has some unconvention help for short landings!

As I recall from my various detachments in MPA, both the Herc and VC10 Navs had topo maps of the islands that showed the known outlying aircraft wreck positions. These maps were updated (renewed) occasionally, with the details being transferred to the new map. At the end of a det the map was passed to the incoming crew. Came in very useful for a bit of aerial sightseeing, and I distinctly recall seeing an isolated Pucara wreck in the south-west of East Falkland, as well as a Dagger on West Falkland. Both airframes very faded but recognisable as their respective types.

I wonder if any of said navs could get the wreck site details off the charts, and pass to those who are interested?