Argonaut/North Star Memories and Observations
 

Folks,

There have been plenty of mentions of the Arognaut, Canadair's "Pressurised DC4 With Merlins" in other recent threads.

Growing up around Caste Don. in the 'sixties, they frequently impressed me, making the kind of sound heard only in WWII adventure films.

My uncle maintained them and flew as flight engineer, and amused us all at family gatherings with his observations on them.

Does anyone have any other reflections or insights?

Apparently, the noise of the "high level blowers" cutting in used to disconcert the passengers somewhat.

Plus, the cabin pressurisation was less than adequate, causing some, errm, discomfort amongst passengers.

r

duff air links version
 

one of my earliest memories of a family holiday was to Majorca in say 1965, with an Air Links Argonaut from LGW. (I was already a spotty spotter). Ah, the joy of transport by 4 historic merlins!

By Le mans Southbound, I noticed liquid streaming over the port wing. 5 mins later, one of the engines was shut down, and the captain announced we were returning to LGW. When we arrived there were at least 3 fire engines cruising up & down the taxiways. Disembarked, 45 mins later we were told the tech problem had been sorted. We took off, and this time only got as far as Brighton before we returned for the same charade. 2 hours later we were asked to re-embark. Cue many stout fathers who grouped together and refused to let their families fly on that crate again. 8 hours later a DC-7C (clearly not in great demand) was flown in from Ireland, and off we went.

Happy days

Skua

One of my earliest memories as a kid was taxiing out to take off at Khartoum, hearing the pilot rev the engines one by one, and then taxiing back to the terminal for an unexpected extra day in Africa.
Here is a photo of one of them taken by my father at Entebbe.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2...x/argonaut.jpg

I've driven one !
 

At Easter 1966, while still at school, I went on a week's 'careers course' at BOAC, being introduced to the various bits of the company. One of the highlights was a visit to the engineering apprentices' Argonaut whicfh was just by the crossing at Hatton Cross. They managed to get a couple of the engines started and we all took turns to sit in the LH seat and advance the throttles until the thing threatened to shake itself to bits.

As a Newcastle spotter, we had a Canadian-registered one as a fixture for a long time, it was on the grass just by the viewing area and you could shelter under it when it rained. I'd seen it before at Coventry in the company of three others, remember seeing some Kenyan ones at Redhill too.

I used to know someone in BMI (now retired) who used to tell me exciting stories of take-offs from the Burnaston grass in the rain. They couldn't carry commercial pax out of Burnaston but it was OK for staff.

I recall seeing a Canadian registered Argonaut/North Star at Panshanger in the earliy sixties. Am I going mad?

The only one I recall seeing was G-ALHG after it had crashed in Stockport while on the approach to Manchester Ringway. As a young lad I cycled to Stockport to see it. It had largely burned out, but the big tail section with 'BM' on it looked incongruous sitting in the middle of the town. The parents of a child in my mother's primary class (my mum was their teacher) were killed in the accident.

Very sad.

SSD

Only one I ever saw was poor old G-ALHJ which languished on the fire dump down near the fuel farm at Heathrow till sometime in the early 1980s? There was a Comet parked near there too...

The Argonauts at Redhill were scrapped there weren't they?

Ah the nostalgia! My childhood at Prestwick airport was filled on a daily basis with the C-54GMs of the RCAF, the DC-4M2s of Trans Canada Airlines and (less frequently) by the C-4 Argonauts of BOAC.

I think the Newcastle DC-4M2 was CF-TFM which had been bought from TCA by Overseas and which disappeared mysteriously one day to Holland and Czechoslovakia wearing a fictitious Italian registration I-ACOA.

It was flown by the infamous Hank Warton (later of Biafra fame) and ended its life when he ran out of fuel and crashed in northern Cameroon.

Nostalgia indeed!!
For my first overseas tour in Aden, transport was the first BOAC trooping flight by Argonaut via Rome and Cairo. Still have the Rome meal voucher somewhere amongst the 'magpie complex' detritus:sad:
Leather, two abreast seats and up-market 'hosties' to cosset you. Perhaps surprisingly, no tech problems. I expect the hearing to recover, eventually !! ;)

I recall seeing a Canadian registered Argonaut/North Star at Panshanger in the earliy sixties. Am I going mad?

During my time at Radlett I recollect being told that DC4s were parked up at Panshanger at one time but not sure whether, or not, they were Argonauts. Anyone else have a pointer on this?

I had a friend who used to fly them as F/O with Trans Canada. They were known for false engine fire warnings. One day enroute Toronto to Winnipeg he had all four engine fire warnings go off at once. The Captain calmly reached up and cancelled all four warnings, with the explanation that the odds were astronomical that all four engines were on fire, and they continued to their destination. :eek:

thread digression.

pigboat: that story is similar to the one about O.P. Jones who had a long distinguished career as a pilot, finishing, I believe, as chief pilot in BOAC.

During the war he was ferrying a Liberator from the US to England, and mid atlantic the engineer somehow managed to knock off all 4 engine magnetos at the same time.

Apparently O.P. didn't bat an eyelid, but turned round and said "strangely quiet, isn't it Mr Smith ?". :)

Second digression
 

Henry, back in the 1980's I listened to an interview on Canadian radio with Captain Eric Moody of BA009, the 747 that lost power in all four due to ingestion of volcanic ash. The lady interviewer was all adither and asked him what his thoughts were, at the controls of an aircraft with no power, at night, etc. His reply - in the best British accent - was, "I was thinking I'm now in charge of the world's largest bloody glider."

Priceless. :ok:

Yet another digression.

When Eric Moody arrived in Australia after the BA009 incident he was interviewed on Australian television and when asked what it was like after the engines failed his reply was "as dark as a badger's *rse at midnight".

Drifting a bit here...

I flew on the same 747 NBO-LHR circa 1989, visited the flight deck, and the crew informed me that this aircraft was know as "Moody's Glider".

:-)

Does anyone know of the Argonaut inadvertant fuel transfer problem?

r

Does anyone know of the Argonaut inadvertant fuel transfer problem?

I understand it was that that caused the Stockport crash - it led to the crew not being aware that certain tanks were being drained, and this resulted in fuel starvation to the engines.

SSD

That fuel feed problem
 

Fuel feed was selected by levers located on the forward side of the centre console, ahead of the throttles ( two sets ). It's a while ago now, but I seem to remember they were selected into detents, as you might expect. Tests conducted by the R.A.E. appeared to show that the rotary fuel cocks operated in sequence could - in the Stockport case, at least - have been incorrectly aligned to the tune of several degrees. This, in turn, it was found, could have allowed migration of fuel from the mains to the auxiliaries. I assume mains would have been the normal feed selected prior to the approach phase. Anyway, it was the misaligned valves that were cited as the chief cause. I suppose, the accident report can be found somewhere on the internet, and I can imagine that in it will be other stuff covering cross-feeds, quantity indication, maintenance etc. etc.

Yes, they were ex-TCA North Stars at Panshanger. I want to say three of them, but that's purely from (old and creaking) memory.

Flew on the ill-fated ALHG aprox 6 months before the Stockport crash.
Managed to get airborn from Ringway at third attempt for Ostend. After only about 10 minutes in the air, one of the starboard Merlins decided to have a fire.
Emergency landing at EMA followed, where HG was towed away to a hanger and all pax were deposited in the staff canteen and fed cold ham, fried eggs and chips.

A four hour wait ensued, until sister ship LHY arrived, which should have operated EMA-JER. This aircraft was allocated for our continued journey and the JER pax informed of an indefinate delay to their flight.

The second leg of the flight was not uneventful, as on landing at Ostend, the tyres on the port undercarraige of HY burst.

Some of my friends witnessed HG on it's approach to Ringway on the day of the crash, across the Denton reservoirs. Apparently it was so low at that stage, you could see the pax through the windows.

A Derby Airways Argonaut did a Jersey flight from Staverton once. When the former SATCO retired after 35 years plus, this was the most memorable aircraft he could recall, so we commissioned a painting of it for him. I'll find a picture somewhere...

I can recall three ex Trans Canada Argonauts at Coventry in the early 1960's belonging to Overseas. They were CF-TFK, CF-TFO and CF-TFT. I think they were scrapped out in the mid 60's. They were all parked on the grass with their tails towards the car park.

The reply from cvt person jogged something grey. That's where the three I mentioned were; apparently there was but one at Panshanger - CF-TFN.
According to a tome in the PT (ahem) library the Argonauts in the UK were scrapped as follows:
CF-TFK,TFO,TFT Coventry
CF-TFN Panshanger
G-ALHI, LHH, LHT, VP-KOI Redhill
G-ALHI Stansted (fire school)
G-ALHJ Heathrow
G-ALHP, LHW, VR-AAT Burnaston
G-ALHM, LHS, LHW, LHY Castle Don.
And not forgetting the peripatetic and probably illegal CF-TFM which was stored for a while at Coventry then reregistered(sic) HP-925, BR-HBP, I-ACOA before smiting a mountain in Cameroun. (BR- was an unofficial mark for Burundi).

When I worked at Southend Airport in the early 60s I can remember
the occasional Argonaut being parked on the north apron.

I vaguely recall they were in BMA colours by then, but a fading memory
could prove me wrong. Still a memorable sight and sound, especially when
compared with all the other DC4 conversions on the airport, the BUAF Carvairs.

In a history of British Midland by B.G. Cramp, the short "time between overhaul" interval of the Merlins is mentioned.

Midland bought the aircraft "on the cheap" from Overseas Aviation, then found that they were costly to maintain.

Was the Merlin a high-performance military power plant, unsuited to commercial operations?

And was it particularly unreliable in the Argonaut?

r

I recall that after the BEA Munich crash a series of tests to evaluate the effects of slush on aircraft take off performance were carried out at Boscomb Down by a Midland Canadair C4. Possibly early sixties.
If this is correct then the old C4 made a significant contribution to flight safety

I think the reliability of the Merlin was perhaps no worse than many of the powerful piston engines of the time. The Stratocruiser was forever limping back in on three, and the Wright Turbo-Compounds on the DC-7C had a depressing propensity for catching fire.

Takeoff on an Argonaut was a somewhat fraught experience, especially out of somewhere hot and high. On the West African routes the passengers were told that the flights were scheduled to cross the Sahara at night, due to it being very turbulent during the day. I'm more inclined to believe now that it was due to performance at Tripoli and Kano!

Mind you, a heavily-laden DC-6 or C118 setting off across the Atlantic was a 'Curvature of the Earth' job too.

<< passengers were told that the flights were scheduled to cross the Sahara at night, due to it being very turbulent during the day. >>

More to do with nav requirements - the ability to hopefully see the stars to fix on - applied equally to the atlantic where both crossings were at night in the immediate post ww2 period - LORAN and consol made life easier in later years!!!!!!

arem - son of eng/nav/pilot in BOAC

Speaking of long-range trans-oceanic flights, here is CPA's Canadair 4, Empress of Sydney, at Sydney, Australia on the return leg of her inaugural flight from Vancouver, Canada, on July 15, 1949.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r...our-aussie.jpg

Speaking of long-range trans-oceanic flights, here is CPA's Canadair 4, Empress of Sydney, at Sydney, Australia on the return leg of her inaugural flight from Vancouver, Canada, on July 15, 1949
What would the routeing have been on that? I get tired just thinking about it!
FW

Fokkerwokker
 

South Pacific routing was Vancouver-San Francisco-Honolulu-Fiji-Auckland-Sydney.

North Pacific routing was Vancouver-Anchorage-Shemya-Tokyo-Hong Kong.

The Chinese Communist Revolution of 1949 curtailed plans to stop in Shanghai.

Thanks for the thread; it bought back fond memories of early flights in an Aden Airways Argonaut to and from Mombasa.

larssnowpharter & evansb
 

Brings back memories to me as well, Khormaksar to Mombasa for two weeks leave to which one was entitled in ones second year in Aden.

Listening to people as they got off saying how noisy the aircraft was----and there was me thinking how quiet it was, but then I was used to sitting between four Griffons!!!

shack
 

Love it!:ok: What avion had four Griffin motors you speak of? Photograph s.v.p?
Many thanks!:)

Re-reading more of Cramp's book on Midland, it seems that they narrowly missed buying DC6-Bs from the US, and only bought the Argonauts from a liquidation sale as they were very cheap.

However, the maintenance costs were much higher, overhauls more expensive, and, as Capt Cramp (who flew them) asserts, their range was inferior to the DC4, never mind the DC6!

Would anyone like to comment?

r

Midland 331
 

You are correct. The range was inferior to the DC-4. CPA relegated the C-4 to the domestic routes in the early 1950s. Meanwhile, Grant persued a contract from Douglas for DC-6Bs and parlayed a deal with de Havilland for the new Comet. Little known fact was that CPA operated DC-4s in place of Canadair C-4s while awaiting the DC-6Bs. CPA also leased some Convair 240s for service to the interior of B.C. His first jet, (and what would have been North America's first jet service) the Comet, crashed on delivery, so Grant bought Bristol Britannias for the long-haul routes the Comet was planned for. The Britannia's engines iced-up at temperatures just south of freezing, so by this time Grant was wondering if most British built
airliners were sub-standard. Against his better judgement, he bought Douglas DC-8s, with the excellent British Rolls Royce Conway engines, primarily because Trans-Canada Airlines had also ordered the DC-8 with the same engine. The DC-8-40s served him well initially, but the company dumped them for the P&W powered DC-8-50, and subsequently bought the stretch series -61, -62 and -63 Douglas DC-8s. He would have loved the Boeing 707-320B, had he lived to buy it. The share-holders of Canadian Pacific Corp. would have rejoiced.

enansb
 

I was stationed at Kai Tak in the early fifties and remember the CPA C4's on a weekly service from Vancouver via Tokyo. The BOAC Argonauts provided a regular "mail from home" service"
Regarding the C4 range. In 1953 I flew on a BOAC Argonaut (RAF charter) from London to Montreal via Iceland.
My records show that the flight time from Keflavik to Dorval 10hrs 50min. and a lot faster than a DC4. Quite a respectable performance I would say.

I grew up right by LHR-in late fifties early 60s and remeber the argonauts cos they were so bloody noisy compared to radials

Be nice to hear one now though
PB

For evansb
 

See Krakatoa's comments re noise (Black BOAC Avro York? 12). Merlin versus Griffon -----no contest, especially as said when you tie 24 prop blades on!!

A five-ship Shack. formation passed over Teesside just before their retirement.

Sound effects worthy of Bomber Command!

r