View Poll Results: Which one would you rather see flying in the future?
Concorde
27
32.53%
Vulcan
56
67.47%
Voters: 83. This poll is closed
Concorde or Vulcan
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SSD
Brilliant description. It was just that sort of experience at a similar age to your little girl that made me want to be a pilot and I've never considered anything else.
As for Concorde not being agile, well I wish I could remember where I read it, but in her early days during testing apparently she was aileron rolled first one way and then the other (to unwind what they had just done). Now that would be an impressive airshow trick! Roly Faulk allegedly did the same in the Vulcan just after take off at Farnborough in the 50's, but I've never seen a photo of the event as proof.
Forgot to mention that Airliner World has a pretty fab picture of 4 (yes 4!) BA Concords in close formation - nice! Anyone know if it is available as a poster?
Brilliant description. It was just that sort of experience at a similar age to your little girl that made me want to be a pilot and I've never considered anything else.
As for Concorde not being agile, well I wish I could remember where I read it, but in her early days during testing apparently she was aileron rolled first one way and then the other (to unwind what they had just done). Now that would be an impressive airshow trick! Roly Faulk allegedly did the same in the Vulcan just after take off at Farnborough in the 50's, but I've never seen a photo of the event as proof.
Forgot to mention that Airliner World has a pretty fab picture of 4 (yes 4!) BA Concords in close formation - nice! Anyone know if it is available as a poster?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Witchdoctor;
I've also heard that Concorde was rolled both ways during development testing but I've no idea if it's true! Don't see why not, we all know about Tex Johnston and the 707 prototype!
But Roly Falk and the Vulcan at Farnborough - yes he did roll it, and I've seen some film of someone doing it there as well! Dunno if it was the original event, seem to recall it was camoflagued... but it happened. Raymond Baxter's book on Fanborough describes it...
My vote goes to keep the Vulcan flying - but that's purely as I see Concorde fairly frequently inbound EGLL, and would like to hear that ghostly Vulcan howl again. Actually, Starfighters used to make a similar noise didn't they? But then again, I'd like a go in Concorde!
Cheers
Treadders
I've also heard that Concorde was rolled both ways during development testing but I've no idea if it's true! Don't see why not, we all know about Tex Johnston and the 707 prototype!
But Roly Falk and the Vulcan at Farnborough - yes he did roll it, and I've seen some film of someone doing it there as well! Dunno if it was the original event, seem to recall it was camoflagued... but it happened. Raymond Baxter's book on Fanborough describes it...
My vote goes to keep the Vulcan flying - but that's purely as I see Concorde fairly frequently inbound EGLL, and would like to hear that ghostly Vulcan howl again. Actually, Starfighters used to make a similar noise didn't they? But then again, I'd like a go in Concorde!
Cheers
Treadders
Iconoclast
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Noise Noise Noise and more Noise !!!!
From a pure dB level the people that lived near and or worked on the airfields where the Vulcan operated more than likely suffered hearing damage. This may also be true for neighbors of Heathrow or JFK when the Concorde took off.
I worked on the Atlas missile and the Saturn and the noise generated by their respective engines produced a sound that differed from the engine noise on the Vulcan and the Concorde. The noise generated by these two aircraft is intrusive and hard on the ears.
When I worked on the Airbus A-310 program I attended an engineering meeting and while we were taking a break a Vulcan took off from the Toulouse airfield and then he returned and made several circuits around the final check out building doing this at about 500 feet AGL. On several occasions I flew out of Heathrow and our 747 was first or second in line for take off after a Concorde. You could hear the engines and feel the associated vibration. The Concorde and the Vulcan have fantastic form but they are / were a health hazard.
It’s OK to say how impressive both aircraft are from a physical appearance and how impressive they are when they fly over you with their engines emitting smoke and noise but if you have to live and work in close proximity to them then it is another story. Working on aircraft and helicopters and then on missiles has destroyed my hearing and I have a constant ringing in my ears from that exposure to the generated noise.
I shall now duck for incoming.
I worked on the Atlas missile and the Saturn and the noise generated by their respective engines produced a sound that differed from the engine noise on the Vulcan and the Concorde. The noise generated by these two aircraft is intrusive and hard on the ears.
When I worked on the Airbus A-310 program I attended an engineering meeting and while we were taking a break a Vulcan took off from the Toulouse airfield and then he returned and made several circuits around the final check out building doing this at about 500 feet AGL. On several occasions I flew out of Heathrow and our 747 was first or second in line for take off after a Concorde. You could hear the engines and feel the associated vibration. The Concorde and the Vulcan have fantastic form but they are / were a health hazard.
It’s OK to say how impressive both aircraft are from a physical appearance and how impressive they are when they fly over you with their engines emitting smoke and noise but if you have to live and work in close proximity to them then it is another story. Working on aircraft and helicopters and then on missiles has destroyed my hearing and I have a constant ringing in my ears from that exposure to the generated noise.
I shall now duck for incoming.
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If we look at things realistically rather than nostalgically, which would stand more chance of being flown by a private organisation? (one with loads of money!)
Presumably a small outfit licensed for passenger carrying ("Concorde's R Us") with the right funding and technical expertise could buy an ex BA/Air France Concorde, use it for air shows, Mach 1 passenger carrying trips round Biscay and have the backing of the CAA.
Wheras I have a very nasty feeling that the Vulc is never going to get its permit to fly.
Any views?
Presumably a small outfit licensed for passenger carrying ("Concorde's R Us") with the right funding and technical expertise could buy an ex BA/Air France Concorde, use it for air shows, Mach 1 passenger carrying trips round Biscay and have the backing of the CAA.
Wheras I have a very nasty feeling that the Vulc is never going to get its permit to fly.
Any views?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Well, Sir Richard Branson was interviewed by John Humphries on Radio 4's Today Programme this morning and he is expressing great interest in acquiring Concordes from BA and maintaining the service... I checked my watch; it definitely isn't April 1st and I'm sure I didn't dream it... did I?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Found the bit of film - it is white (or silver), I have a faulty memory!
It's in an epsiode of Channel Four's "Classic Aircraft" about jets and includes an interview with Avro TP Jimmy Harrison who talks about the roll. I get the impression it was done more than once!
Also worth watching for some stuff on the F-111 and Neil Anderson.
Also found Raymond Baxter's book - if I get time later, I'll post his description of that occasion. Now, where did I read about the Concorde roll? It just might have been an article in Flying by Nigel Moll, who had a go in the Concorde simulator...
Lovely day today... I'm off out...
It's in an epsiode of Channel Four's "Classic Aircraft" about jets and includes an interview with Avro TP Jimmy Harrison who talks about the roll. I get the impression it was done more than once!
Also worth watching for some stuff on the F-111 and Neil Anderson.
Also found Raymond Baxter's book - if I get time later, I'll post his description of that occasion. Now, where did I read about the Concorde roll? It just might have been an article in Flying by Nigel Moll, who had a go in the Concorde simulator...
Lovely day today... I'm off out...
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I've got a vid called 'the Best of British Aviation' which shows old Farnborough airshows. There is footage of the Vulcan rolling, and Vulcan (and Victor) pulling up into a half-loop, with a roll off the top - a form of 'toss' bomb delivery, apparently.
Very impressive.
SSD
Very impressive.
SSD
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Strange that so many females find something irresistable about the Vulcan, I've known a few who normally didn't care about aircraft but would say 'Oh I like that one there' (e.g my mum) and female aviation fans go weak at the knees when it flew. Any idea what this mysterious appeal of the Vulcan is/was to women?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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MJ: yes! BEagle, are you out there, what sayeth you on the subject? I'm pretty sure the Concorde bit was written rather than film, but as above, the old grey matter is a bit hazy...
SSD! Yer right! There's something in one of Lewis Benjamin's Tiger Club Books which I am sure mentions the then favoured "toss bombing" method of nuclear warhead delivery - I believe the TC also adopted it in the 60s as way of enlivening their flour bombing demonstrations with a T Moth! As I recall the idea was to get rid of the goodies and scarper in the opposite direction as quickly as possible which seems quite sensible to me.
Women and Vulcans? Dunno, but my sister is most certainly a Vulcan fan, and she is also particularly struck on the term "birfurcated". I'll leave you to ponder...
SSD! Yer right! There's something in one of Lewis Benjamin's Tiger Club Books which I am sure mentions the then favoured "toss bombing" method of nuclear warhead delivery - I believe the TC also adopted it in the 60s as way of enlivening their flour bombing demonstrations with a T Moth! As I recall the idea was to get rid of the goodies and scarper in the opposite direction as quickly as possible which seems quite sensible to me.
Women and Vulcans? Dunno, but my sister is most certainly a Vulcan fan, and she is also particularly struck on the term "birfurcated". I'll leave you to ponder...
The piece about Concorde barrel-rolling was on the BBC series Reaching for the Sky and was told by BA's Chief Concorde Pilot, Mike Bannister who described how he was flying with, I believe Andre Turcat, who rolled the beast and then said to Mike, "I've wound it up, so you had better unwind it", whereupon Bannister barrel-rolled in the opposite direction. He went on to say "we don't do it with passengers of course" 
I always liked the comment by Tex Johnson who, after rolling the 707, was asked by Boeing's boss what the hell he thought he was doing and he replied "selling aeroplanes"
I always liked the comment by Tex Johnson who, after rolling the 707, was asked by Boeing's boss what the hell he thought he was doing and he replied "selling aeroplanes"
The first time I saw the Vulcan was when they flew up the valley I lived in in Wales and they were below us. Fantastic sight.
The last time I saw a Vulcan fly was at West Malling when the XH558 was leading the Red Arrows in formation down the runway at not a lot of feet agl. I was standing in the B-17 Sally B looking out of the windscreen at this awesome sight. My girlfriend started screaming as she was standing in the bomb bay of the B-17 and thought they were starting the engines, the noisse and the vibration were so intense. An even more fantastic sight than the first.
Lu Z, aeroplanes are noisy, some are noisier than others. As I recall, the B-1B and the B-52 aren't exactly quiet ........ Equally awesome to see displayed though. I remember Mildenhall a while back where the B1B came down the runway at 100', barely subsonic and set off most of the car alarms in the car park. The B-52 gave a display like a giant cropsprayer with those 8 J-85's (?) throwing out half burnt Jet A1. Fantastic sight.
The last time I saw a Vulcan fly was at West Malling when the XH558 was leading the Red Arrows in formation down the runway at not a lot of feet agl. I was standing in the B-17 Sally B looking out of the windscreen at this awesome sight. My girlfriend started screaming as she was standing in the bomb bay of the B-17 and thought they were starting the engines, the noisse and the vibration were so intense. An even more fantastic sight than the first.
Lu Z, aeroplanes are noisy, some are noisier than others. As I recall, the B-1B and the B-52 aren't exactly quiet ........ Equally awesome to see displayed though. I remember Mildenhall a while back where the B1B came down the runway at 100', barely subsonic and set off most of the car alarms in the car park. The B-52 gave a display like a giant cropsprayer with those 8 J-85's (?) throwing out half burnt Jet A1. Fantastic sight.
Paxing All Over The World
I recall a display at Fairford about 15 years ago, watching the B-52s do their stuff. Staggering is too small a word. There was the oft repeated line that, when fully laden at take-off, they just retract the undercart and wait for the curvature of the earth to take effect. Without a doubt, when you looked at the exhaust, their engines were running on coal.
At Mildenhall, saw Blackbird do a display which was way out cool. BUT Vulcan ... I preferred her in the anti-flash white, which is the photographs we used to have in my house when growing up.
She was the queen. The screaming, ranting, bellowing, dancing Queen.
At Mildenhall, saw Blackbird do a display which was way out cool. BUT Vulcan ... I preferred her in the anti-flash white, which is the photographs we used to have in my house when growing up.
She was the queen. The screaming, ranting, bellowing, dancing Queen.
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Difficult choice - worked on the Concorde as a humble Avionic chap but only briefly.
Saw the Vulcan as it did it's test flights from Woodford when the in-flight fueling probes for the Falklands were fitted so the Vulcan wins.
Saw the Vulcan as it did it's test flights from Woodford when the in-flight fueling probes for the Falklands were fitted so the Vulcan wins.
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Tales of Vulcans takes me back to a day in 1967 when I had a close encounter of the too-thrilling kind.
I was instructing an ATC cadet in a T-21 glider at Spitalgate, near Grantham. We had thermalled up to 3000ft and noticed a Vulcan about 5 miles away turning to line up with his approach to Cottesmore, 20+miles to the south. Later it appeared again following the same flight path (afterwards we learned that the pilot was practising GCA approaches). On the third appearance it didn’t turn away and headed almost directly towards us, just 100ft below. Evasive manoeuvres in a Barge (92 kts max and that’s straight down) are no match for a Vulcan so I kept the little height advantage we had and showed him our maximium planform in a steep turn, hoping that he was looking out.
He was and turned away smartly, passing about 300 yds away. We certainly heard that Vulcan noise and smelt the smoky paraffin - or maybe that’s what fear smells like.
I was instructing an ATC cadet in a T-21 glider at Spitalgate, near Grantham. We had thermalled up to 3000ft and noticed a Vulcan about 5 miles away turning to line up with his approach to Cottesmore, 20+miles to the south. Later it appeared again following the same flight path (afterwards we learned that the pilot was practising GCA approaches). On the third appearance it didn’t turn away and headed almost directly towards us, just 100ft below. Evasive manoeuvres in a Barge (92 kts max and that’s straight down) are no match for a Vulcan so I kept the little height advantage we had and showed him our maximium planform in a steep turn, hoping that he was looking out.
He was and turned away smartly, passing about 300 yds away. We certainly heard that Vulcan noise and smelt the smoky paraffin - or maybe that’s what fear smells like.
Definately VULCAN.
Spent many happy years servicing these beasts at Bitteswell. Even after a 'major', the crew would wind them up at the end of the runway, let the brakes go and stand them on their arses as they climbed vertically into the sky. The ground under your feet would vibrate like nothing on earth, forget Concorde;doesn't even compare.
I wouldn't have thought there would be much of a fatigue index left on any of the Vulcans currently kicking around. After changing the role from a high level bomber to a 200 feet bomber the strains on the aircraft were immense.
However, all that said, I'd really love to see one fly again.
Spent many happy years servicing these beasts at Bitteswell. Even after a 'major', the crew would wind them up at the end of the runway, let the brakes go and stand them on their arses as they climbed vertically into the sky. The ground under your feet would vibrate like nothing on earth, forget Concorde;doesn't even compare.
I wouldn't have thought there would be much of a fatigue index left on any of the Vulcans currently kicking around. After changing the role from a high level bomber to a 200 feet bomber the strains on the aircraft were immense.
However, all that said, I'd really love to see one fly again.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Concord (the Brit one, without the "e")
My dear wife knows how I feel about silly old lumps of aloominium, that leave the place where her feet are always planted, so she gave me a very special birthday treat of a flight in Concord out of EGCC, well, I thought, sat in the very rearmost seat/window on the port side would be a simple flight in a very expensive and noisy A/c, after the Captn read out the mind numbing facts and figures of everything from tyres temps to air flow speed through the engine baffles we settled down to take off, when the engines were first spooled up they sounded like a bag of nuts and bolts being ground to dust but with the onsett of temp they went quiet and business like, most of the Pax were (surprise, surprise) males with about 6 Femmes in the total of 100 Pax, all the birthday people were given their own special bottle of Champers and we were off down the runway at EGCC, the A/c left the ground very quickly and climbed so fast that grimey old Manchester took about 2 minutes to disappear behind us, the acceleration upon t/o could only be decribed as totally mind blowing, it was very difficult to reach out forward with my hands to touch the seat back in front of me, we went so high I seem to think about 65k ft that the sky above us was a deep sapphire blue almost black, after suitable instruction from the pointed end I could see the curveture of the planet that we live on.
I could write for ages explaining various things about this superb aircraft but I am sure my views and memorys would bore many, so I will say only this, I hope before I die to be able to fly in such an aircraft again, just to show me what mankind can do when they put their minds to the task, even with the help of the Froggies, sadly Concord will stop flying, its a cost thing actioned on by the Oz boss of BA, but I would rather see finance pumped into the Avro Vulcan, Now that is a Aircraft to behold, and hear!!
I could write for ages explaining various things about this superb aircraft but I am sure my views and memorys would bore many, so I will say only this, I hope before I die to be able to fly in such an aircraft again, just to show me what mankind can do when they put their minds to the task, even with the help of the Froggies, sadly Concord will stop flying, its a cost thing actioned on by the Oz boss of BA, but I would rather see finance pumped into the Avro Vulcan, Now that is a Aircraft to behold, and hear!!
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I wipe the tears from my eyes as I write this 
... I too remember the Vulcan in her heyday (I have photos to prove it). I also remember the Victor and Valliant. I would dearly love to see all three in a flypast.
Not to mention the English Electric Lightning... now that is a sight to see... and the Blackburn Buccaneer!! But along with the Avro Shackleton, I fear, in the famed words of Ernest Kellogg Gann "their wings are clipped forever"
I don't want to climb on my soap box (because it's a long way down when I fall off) but the reason these aircraft will not fly again is, I feel, due to the powers that be not wanting to take responsibility should anything go wrong. I find it bizarre that people with so little interest in aviation should elevate themselves to the position where they can make these decisions. The old saying springs to mind "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" or more importantly, don't be a cook!! If they don't want to take responsibility for aviation safety matters, find a different job. Why is common sense so rare? Surely it would be more appropriate to call it "rare sense"
Interestingly though, if you want to see the Lightnings and Buccaneers fly, go to Thunder City in South Africa. For a price you can have a flight in them! And I believe there are two groups in the United States that are trying to get Lightnings flying again. So is flying in the UK any more dangerous than elsewhere in the world?
There was a rumour of XH558 going abroad to fly again, what an ambivalent day that will be.
Safe flying
BlipOnTheRadar
p.s. anyone going to Bruntingthorpe on 4th May for the open day?
... I too remember the Vulcan in her heyday (I have photos to prove it). I also remember the Victor and Valliant. I would dearly love to see all three in a flypast. Not to mention the English Electric Lightning... now that is a sight to see... and the Blackburn Buccaneer!! But along with the Avro Shackleton, I fear, in the famed words of Ernest Kellogg Gann "their wings are clipped forever"
I don't want to climb on my soap box (because it's a long way down when I fall off) but the reason these aircraft will not fly again is, I feel, due to the powers that be not wanting to take responsibility should anything go wrong. I find it bizarre that people with so little interest in aviation should elevate themselves to the position where they can make these decisions. The old saying springs to mind "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" or more importantly, don't be a cook!! If they don't want to take responsibility for aviation safety matters, find a different job. Why is common sense so rare? Surely it would be more appropriate to call it "rare sense"
Interestingly though, if you want to see the Lightnings and Buccaneers fly, go to Thunder City in South Africa. For a price you can have a flight in them! And I believe there are two groups in the United States that are trying to get Lightnings flying again. So is flying in the UK any more dangerous than elsewhere in the world?
There was a rumour of XH558 going abroad to fly again, what an ambivalent day that will be.
Safe flying
BlipOnTheRadar
p.s. anyone going to Bruntingthorpe on 4th May for the open day?
Interesting programme on Discovery Wings last night (Sunday) called 'Cold War Jets of the RAF'. Good contemporary film of JPs, Gnats, Lightnings, Buccaneers, Canberras, Vulcans, Victors and Valiants. The best shot was three Vulcans with their gear down following each other round the circuit. Top stuff!