Trident Autoland - Test Pilot Ron E. Clear
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From: UK
Trident Autoland - Test Pilot Ron E. Clear & Capt Jimmy Phillips
What a remarkable video.
I'm sure this procedure isn't allowed anymore!
Captain Jimmy Phillips & Ron Clear
Last edited by LOWI; 18th May 2025 at 19:57.
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From: N . Daarset
Lowi , I'm guessing [ sound off ] this was at the BLEU [ Blind Landing Experimental Unit ] , possibly RAE Bedford as the approach is over open country . Both of these gentlemen are test pilots , and are developing / testing the A/Land system . Not to mention demonstrating , hoping to gain sales .
In 12 yrs line flying on T1cs, 1e, 2cs , and 3bs , the SOP was for handling pilot to follow through on all control movements , ready to take over manually if Mr Smith [ the autopilot ] failed or malfunctioned.
The F/O flying the approach for the Skippers autoland . In good wx. F/Os could A/land .
I didn't seem to mind operational A/lands , sometimes up to 4 in a day [ GLA double shuttle , fog at both ends ] . But somehow seemed a bit odd belting down the Rwy at 150kts in 75m RVR , with the skipper following the PVD [ Para Visual Director , ''Barbers Pole'' ] linked to the localiser , with F/O's eyes glued to the eng. insts. And P3 monitoring P2's [F/O] flight Insts. calling speeds .
All a long time ago !
rgds condor .
In 12 yrs line flying on T1cs, 1e, 2cs , and 3bs , the SOP was for handling pilot to follow through on all control movements , ready to take over manually if Mr Smith [ the autopilot ] failed or malfunctioned.
The F/O flying the approach for the Skippers autoland . In good wx. F/Os could A/land .
I didn't seem to mind operational A/lands , sometimes up to 4 in a day [ GLA double shuttle , fog at both ends ] . But somehow seemed a bit odd belting down the Rwy at 150kts in 75m RVR , with the skipper following the PVD [ Para Visual Director , ''Barbers Pole'' ] linked to the localiser , with F/O's eyes glued to the eng. insts. And P3 monitoring P2's [F/O] flight Insts. calling speeds .
All a long time ago !
rgds condor .
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From: A place in the sun
There is a world of a difference between a demonstration in good conditions with two test pilots, as was the case here, and normal line operations. I presume this demonstration was filmed to show their complete confidence in the autoland system.
Well done de Havilland!!
Well done de Havilland!!
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From: by the seaside
Lowi , I'm guessing [ sound off ] this was at the BLEU [ Blind Landing Experimental Unit ] , possibly RAE Bedford as the approach is over open country . Both of these gentlemen are test pilots , and are developing / testing the A/Land system . Not to mention demonstrating , hoping to gain sales .
In 12 yrs line flying on T1cs, 1e, 2cs , and 3bs , the SOP was for handling pilot to follow through on all control movements , ready to take over manually if Mr Smith [ the autopilot ] failed or malfunctioned.
The F/O flying the approach for the Skippers autoland . In good wx. F/Os could A/land .
I didn't seem to mind operational A/lands , sometimes up to 4 in a day [ GLA double shuttle , fog at both ends ] . But somehow seemed a bit odd belting down the Rwy at 150kts in 75m RVR , with the skipper following the PVD [ Para Visual Director , ''Barbers Pole'' ] linked to the localiser , with F/O's eyes glued to the eng. insts. And P3 monitoring P2's [F/O] flight Insts. calling speeds .
All a long time ago !
rgds condor .
In 12 yrs line flying on T1cs, 1e, 2cs , and 3bs , the SOP was for handling pilot to follow through on all control movements , ready to take over manually if Mr Smith [ the autopilot ] failed or malfunctioned.
The F/O flying the approach for the Skippers autoland . In good wx. F/Os could A/land .
I didn't seem to mind operational A/lands , sometimes up to 4 in a day [ GLA double shuttle , fog at both ends ] . But somehow seemed a bit odd belting down the Rwy at 150kts in 75m RVR , with the skipper following the PVD [ Para Visual Director , ''Barbers Pole'' ] linked to the localiser , with F/O's eyes glued to the eng. insts. And P3 monitoring P2's [F/O] flight Insts. calling speeds .
All a long time ago !
rgds condor .
Had an evening with the bloke who developed the Smiths panel at is home in the Alps and got a gong or title for it. Accomplished mountain glider pilot. Name escapes me but clever chappie.
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From: Cyprus
You lot know I could only stand 4 years . First Autoland with me calling the shots was years later, B767, Cat111c into Delhi(I think). Landing was so smooth I forgot we were on the ground but sooooper cool, Arab FO from the Acadamy just quietly said ;" Aircraft down Jordo. Reverse please."
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From: near an aeroplane
Narration by the captain explains that this was into Hatfield. There is a similar video somewhere that shows a similar demonstration on a VC10 but on that occasion both pilots are diligently monitoring, albeit with hands clear of the controls.
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From: Wildest Surrey
Watching the movements of the controls, I noticed there are very large inputs being made by the autopilot. Was it really that turbulent? When I did my ATCO Course at Viking House on the Trident trainers, we never had to make such large control inputs even when flying 'manually'.(we'd all done PPL courses but were comparatively ham fisted and would have tended to over control.)
Last edited by chevvron; 19th May 2025 at 15:50.
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From: by the seaside
The Trident simulator had different pitch characteristics to the aircraft - this was confirmed to me by one of the Papa India investigators.
Think the stick moved that much because of the nature of analogue computers and the gain programming; would guess it was smoothed out on production aircraft.
The flight director bars were twitchy as well but if you flew pitch referenced to ROD and glide slope it was smoother.
Think the stick moved that much because of the nature of analogue computers and the gain programming; would guess it was smoothed out on production aircraft.
The flight director bars were twitchy as well but if you flew pitch referenced to ROD and glide slope it was smoother.
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From: lincolnshire
AUTOLAND IN UK AIRLINE USE
In the 80s I was on a B757 ground school course with a certain charter airline and the Course Director, an active 757 pilot, told us about his experiences with the recently-introduced Cat3c Autoland system. When the first company aircraft was fitted out naturally the crews wanted to have a practice with it as soon as possible. The only available installation in UK then was at Gatwick, and they were told in no uncertain terms by the airport authorities that no ‘practising’ was allowed –it was only available for use in actual Cat3c weather conditions, i.e zero cloudbase and just enough visibility to taxy.
The reason for this was that when the system was in use the whole of the approach end of the runway in use was sterilised with no ground movement permitted as stray vehicles or aircraft might interfere with the operation of the ILS beams. This caused massive disruption to airport operation, hence the restriction.
The first company aircraft to carry out an Autoland therefore approached Gatwick in RED conditions with some 150 unsuspecting passengers down the back. In the US the 757 was certificated by the FAA to land in zero/zero with the system but in UK the CAA - in their wisdom - had insisted on a DA of 50ft RAlt.
IIRC The drill was that the handling pilot - the Captain - ‘guarded’ the yoke throughout the approach and landing, ready to take over in event of a malfunction or press the ‘Go Around’ button on the throttles should the landing be aborted, (which manoeuvre would be carried out entirely on autopilot). The Co-Jo’s job was to call out the RAlt readings down to DA and when they turned to RED - i.e at DA - he would call “DECIDE!” This was the agreed company procedure, which had been practised many times in the Sim.
With a precious cargo down the back tension ran high as DA was approached. The RAlt reading went RED, the Co-Jo called “DECIDE!”, the captain said “Say again?” and they hit the runway smoothly without further drama, still on autopilot, the captain having seen nothing of the runway lights outside the cockpit.
I was not to experience Cat 3c or any other kind of landing in the 757 because I realised I was making a big mistake in leaving an exciting Fast Jet job in the RAF. Before I got to fly the 757 I handed in my cards and went back to my old job on the Tornado GR1.
In the 80s I was on a B757 ground school course with a certain charter airline and the Course Director, an active 757 pilot, told us about his experiences with the recently-introduced Cat3c Autoland system. When the first company aircraft was fitted out naturally the crews wanted to have a practice with it as soon as possible. The only available installation in UK then was at Gatwick, and they were told in no uncertain terms by the airport authorities that no ‘practising’ was allowed –it was only available for use in actual Cat3c weather conditions, i.e zero cloudbase and just enough visibility to taxy.
The reason for this was that when the system was in use the whole of the approach end of the runway in use was sterilised with no ground movement permitted as stray vehicles or aircraft might interfere with the operation of the ILS beams. This caused massive disruption to airport operation, hence the restriction.
The first company aircraft to carry out an Autoland therefore approached Gatwick in RED conditions with some 150 unsuspecting passengers down the back. In the US the 757 was certificated by the FAA to land in zero/zero with the system but in UK the CAA - in their wisdom - had insisted on a DA of 50ft RAlt.
IIRC The drill was that the handling pilot - the Captain - ‘guarded’ the yoke throughout the approach and landing, ready to take over in event of a malfunction or press the ‘Go Around’ button on the throttles should the landing be aborted, (which manoeuvre would be carried out entirely on autopilot). The Co-Jo’s job was to call out the RAlt readings down to DA and when they turned to RED - i.e at DA - he would call “DECIDE!” This was the agreed company procedure, which had been practised many times in the Sim.
With a precious cargo down the back tension ran high as DA was approached. The RAlt reading went RED, the Co-Jo called “DECIDE!”, the captain said “Say again?” and they hit the runway smoothly without further drama, still on autopilot, the captain having seen nothing of the runway lights outside the cockpit.
I was not to experience Cat 3c or any other kind of landing in the 757 because I realised I was making a big mistake in leaving an exciting Fast Jet job in the RAF. Before I got to fly the 757 I handed in my cards and went back to my old job on the Tornado GR1.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
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From: England
The Fokker 100 was cat 3c. RVR 75m and zero decision height. I never used it in those conditions, but some pretty murky ones. Smooth as silk.
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From: England
AUTOLAND IN UK AIRLINE USE
In the 80s I was on a B757 ground school course with a certain charter airline and the Course Director, an active 757 pilot, told us about his experiences with the recently-introduced Cat3c Autoland system. When the first company aircraft was fitted out naturally the crews wanted to have a practice with it as soon as possible. The only available installation in UK then was at Gatwick, and they were told in no uncertain terms by the airport authorities that no ‘practising’ was allowed –it was only available for use in actual Cat3c weather conditions, i.e zero cloudbase and just enough visibility to taxy.
The reason for this was that when the system was in use the whole of the approach end of the runway in use was sterilised with no ground movement permitted as stray vehicles or aircraft might interfere with the operation of the ILS beams. This caused massive disruption to airport operation, hence the restriction.
The first company aircraft to carry out an Autoland therefore approached Gatwick in RED conditions with some 150 unsuspecting passengers down the back. In the US the 757 was certificated by the FAA to land in zero/zero with the system but in UK the CAA - in their wisdom - had insisted on a DA of 50ft RAlt.
IIRC The drill was that the handling pilot - the Captain - ‘guarded’ the yoke throughout the approach and landing, ready to take over in event of a malfunction or press the ‘Go Around’ button on the throttles should the landing be aborted, (which manoeuvre would be carried out entirely on autopilot). The Co-Jo’s job was to call out the RAlt readings down to DA and when they turned to RED - i.e at DA - he would call “DECIDE!” This was the agreed company procedure, which had been practised many times in the Sim.
With a precious cargo down the back tension ran high as DA was approached. The RAlt reading went RED, the Co-Jo called “DECIDE!”, the captain said “Say again?” and they hit the runway smoothly without further drama, still on autopilot, the captain having seen nothing of the runway lights outside the cockpit.
I was not to experience Cat 3c or any other kind of landing in the 757 because I realised I was making a big mistake in leaving an exciting Fast Jet job in the RAF. Before I got to fly the 757 I handed in my cards and went back to my old job on the Tornado GR1.
In the 80s I was on a B757 ground school course with a certain charter airline and the Course Director, an active 757 pilot, told us about his experiences with the recently-introduced Cat3c Autoland system. When the first company aircraft was fitted out naturally the crews wanted to have a practice with it as soon as possible. The only available installation in UK then was at Gatwick, and they were told in no uncertain terms by the airport authorities that no ‘practising’ was allowed –it was only available for use in actual Cat3c weather conditions, i.e zero cloudbase and just enough visibility to taxy.
The reason for this was that when the system was in use the whole of the approach end of the runway in use was sterilised with no ground movement permitted as stray vehicles or aircraft might interfere with the operation of the ILS beams. This caused massive disruption to airport operation, hence the restriction.
The first company aircraft to carry out an Autoland therefore approached Gatwick in RED conditions with some 150 unsuspecting passengers down the back. In the US the 757 was certificated by the FAA to land in zero/zero with the system but in UK the CAA - in their wisdom - had insisted on a DA of 50ft RAlt.
IIRC The drill was that the handling pilot - the Captain - ‘guarded’ the yoke throughout the approach and landing, ready to take over in event of a malfunction or press the ‘Go Around’ button on the throttles should the landing be aborted, (which manoeuvre would be carried out entirely on autopilot). The Co-Jo’s job was to call out the RAlt readings down to DA and when they turned to RED - i.e at DA - he would call “DECIDE!” This was the agreed company procedure, which had been practised many times in the Sim.
With a precious cargo down the back tension ran high as DA was approached. The RAlt reading went RED, the Co-Jo called “DECIDE!”, the captain said “Say again?” and they hit the runway smoothly without further drama, still on autopilot, the captain having seen nothing of the runway lights outside the cockpit.
I was not to experience Cat 3c or any other kind of landing in the 757 because I realised I was making a big mistake in leaving an exciting Fast Jet job in the RAF. Before I got to fly the 757 I handed in my cards and went back to my old job on the Tornado GR1.
Practice autolands were permitted at LGW with the proviso that if LVPs were not in force crews should be prepared to revert to manual landing as autopilot behaviour might be erratic (departing aircraft would distort the localiser beam).
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From: In front of a computer
Over the years I’ve carried out dozens of auto lands at the various categories in everything from the BAC 1-11 to the 747. Two problems - realising the aircraft managed smoother touchdowns than I could and a creeping dread that one day the lights glimpsed in a CAT 111c would turn out to be the car park!
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From: DM33
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From: N . Daarset
BP , not sure about that , but not knowing many murderers !
Gordo , Delhi , best radar controllers for turn onto the localiser I've ever had . Superb , 'n told him so . Contrast to SFO , gave him an earful when he slam dunked 250 tonnes expecting us to be a Cherokee , crossed him off my Christmas card list .
Jhi , my '' sound off '' ! And much less built up then .
ExMud , the A/land systems were progressively developed over the years , as were crew limits , they did not start at the final results . Somewhere in attic is my Cat 3 card with progressive limits as skills /experience / training improved.
Finally the Trid was 12'R and 75m RVR .
75/76 finally 0'R DH and 75m
744 0'R DH and 75m .
Thus 75/76/744 et al . Decision to land made at 1000' R , when control of a/c passed to Capt. The 75m RVR deemed minimum to be able to manually taxi off the Rwy !
Have had radar in Milan guide us to the stand , at LHR stopped when we saw a 74's u/c in front of us ... with the tail overhanging our nose unseen 'til then .
73's [ 2/3/4s ] only have 2 hyd and other systems thus fail the 1 in 10 to power of 6 failure rate required for full Cat 3 B/C [ Triplex most things ] . They have A/land Cat 3A , 50' R + 200m RVR .
ILS and Rwy protection areas implemented when vis. below 2200m [ if memory correct ] .. Also flow rates badly impacted as spacings may have been 5nm down from the usual 2.5 nm ...
Did not matter in early days when we were the only Cat 3 operators , and could rattle off a double Glasgow in 75m both ends with no delays . Whilst others holding for RVR improvements .
Even the Trid had auto G/A , and from 12'R you expected to hit the Rwy during the manoeuvre .
rgds condor .
Gordo , Delhi , best radar controllers for turn onto the localiser I've ever had . Superb , 'n told him so . Contrast to SFO , gave him an earful when he slam dunked 250 tonnes expecting us to be a Cherokee , crossed him off my Christmas card list .
Jhi , my '' sound off '' ! And much less built up then .
ExMud , the A/land systems were progressively developed over the years , as were crew limits , they did not start at the final results . Somewhere in attic is my Cat 3 card with progressive limits as skills /experience / training improved.
Finally the Trid was 12'R and 75m RVR .
75/76 finally 0'R DH and 75m
744 0'R DH and 75m .
Thus 75/76/744 et al . Decision to land made at 1000' R , when control of a/c passed to Capt. The 75m RVR deemed minimum to be able to manually taxi off the Rwy !
Have had radar in Milan guide us to the stand , at LHR stopped when we saw a 74's u/c in front of us ... with the tail overhanging our nose unseen 'til then .
73's [ 2/3/4s ] only have 2 hyd and other systems thus fail the 1 in 10 to power of 6 failure rate required for full Cat 3 B/C [ Triplex most things ] . They have A/land Cat 3A , 50' R + 200m RVR .
ILS and Rwy protection areas implemented when vis. below 2200m [ if memory correct ] .. Also flow rates badly impacted as spacings may have been 5nm down from the usual 2.5 nm ...
Did not matter in early days when we were the only Cat 3 operators , and could rattle off a double Glasgow in 75m both ends with no delays . Whilst others holding for RVR improvements .
Even the Trid had auto G/A , and from 12'R you expected to hit the Rwy during the manoeuvre .
rgds condor .
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From: with the ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Concur re Delhi, my only ever A/L right on 75 m was there, ATC was spot on.
Edited to add I too recall the Stuka-style descents into SFO.
Edited to add I too recall the Stuka-style descents into SFO.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 21st May 2025 at 23:52.
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From: Wildest Surrey
Over the years I’ve carried out dozens of auto lands at the various categories in everything from the BAC 1-11 to the 747. Two problems - realising the aircraft managed smoother touchdowns than I could and a creeping dread that one day the lights glimpsed in a CAT 111c would turn out to be the car park!
So he flew the PAR and touched down. Passenger remarked it was a bit bumpy. That was because the pilot had seen a line of lights and thought they were the centreline so straddled them not realising it was the left hand edge lights!
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: England
A famous (perhaps apocryphal) Trident tale: The chaps are inbound to LHR with METARs below Cat 1. They are pleased to discover that not only are all three cleared for autoland < Cat 1 (with certificates to prove it) but so is the autopilot (which was not always the case, depending on tech status). They brief themselves accordingly.
Checking in with London on handover they're told: 'Maintain FL 310 call entering the hold at Lydd.'
They play their masterstroke: 'London, Bealine 478, we're Cat 3 qualified and we're requesting descent for autoland.'
'Bealine 478, the RVR is now 700 metres and you're number 19 in the landing sequence.'
Checking in with London on handover they're told: 'Maintain FL 310 call entering the hold at Lydd.'
They play their masterstroke: 'London, Bealine 478, we're Cat 3 qualified and we're requesting descent for autoland.'
'Bealine 478, the RVR is now 700 metres and you're number 19 in the landing sequence.'
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From: by the seaside
Had the opposite with an ex star fighter jockey who would only take minimum fuel..inbound to Zurich they announced we were X squared for approach and only had half an hour before had to go to stuttgart..looked at him and raised my eyebrows..just about to divert and the RVR dropped to below everyone else’s minimum and in we got.
After that he changed his attitude to me and a few years later we did a trip to Caracas..12,000ft downwind and we were given number 2..ask for a visual Hans…intercepted the glide slope from above at 700ft spooling up the engines…(and did a better landing than the DC10 automatics could do).
Back to the gripper..were told that whatever the autopilot did leave it in ..few years later a mate ex tridents did more than a million quids damage on a 747 when the aircraft pitched down in the flare ..he saved it from even more damage ..initially grounded but had the technical pilot down the back who confirmed his actions saved even more damage.
After that he changed his attitude to me and a few years later we did a trip to Caracas..12,000ft downwind and we were given number 2..ask for a visual Hans…intercepted the glide slope from above at 700ft spooling up the engines…(and did a better landing than the DC10 automatics could do).
Back to the gripper..were told that whatever the autopilot did leave it in ..few years later a mate ex tridents did more than a million quids damage on a 747 when the aircraft pitched down in the flare ..he saved it from even more damage ..initially grounded but had the technical pilot down the back who confirmed his actions saved even more damage.
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From: not where I want to be
FP.