TSR2
What is astounding was the absolute vehement prejudice by the RAF against the Buccaneer just necause it was FAA.
Mountbatten was also instrumental in talking the Australians out of TSR2 and I think recommending the Buccaneer.
That worked well, they eventually got F-111s - years late and considerably more expensive than expected.
That worked well, they eventually got F-111s - years late and considerably more expensive than expected.
Brewster B
Having made the comment myself that TSR2 was uneconomic I think youare completley right about the JV approach. I suppose to a degree it actually happened with the Jaguar and later the Tornado . It seemed to em the idea of building something as complex as TSR2 was anon starter because it had no large market . Yanks wouldnt buy it , French probably not so thats RAF and the Aussies who are/were not exactlya stategic power .
Usual UK introspection and over confidence sadly , 50% of the work on a JV with France would have been much better than 100% of nothing..
PB
Having made the comment myself that TSR2 was uneconomic I think youare completley right about the JV approach. I suppose to a degree it actually happened with the Jaguar and later the Tornado . It seemed to em the idea of building something as complex as TSR2 was anon starter because it had no large market . Yanks wouldnt buy it , French probably not so thats RAF and the Aussies who are/were not exactlya stategic power .
Usual UK introspection and over confidence sadly , 50% of the work on a JV with France would have been much better than 100% of nothing..
PB
Although not asked to do so Blackburn did submit in 1958 an improved version of the Buccaneer for the TSR2 specification but as it didn't meet the speed, range and landing/take off requirements it was rejected.
Blackburn tried again in 1960 offering re-engined and enlarged versions which could go supersonic, though not to Mach 2, and which had the range, providing external tanks were used. However there was no improvement to the rough field requirement. At that point design and development of the TSR2 was well under way and so, again, there was no RAF interest.
The avionics isssue raised in posts 17 & 18 would probably applied to the Buccaneer as well.
Of course if they knew in 1960 that the project would go way over budget and be delayed then maybe the improved Buccaneer would have got the nod.....
Blackburn tried again in 1960 offering re-engined and enlarged versions which could go supersonic, though not to Mach 2, and which had the range, providing external tanks were used. However there was no improvement to the rough field requirement. At that point design and development of the TSR2 was well under way and so, again, there was no RAF interest.
The avionics isssue raised in posts 17 & 18 would probably applied to the Buccaneer as well.
Of course if they knew in 1960 that the project would go way over budget and be delayed then maybe the improved Buccaneer would have got the nod.....
Value for money
What is astounding was the absolute vehement prejudice by the RAF against the Buccaneer just because it was FAA.
They eventually had a choice between the Bucc or a Cessna 150 (alledgedly!
) and very, very reluctantly adopted the Bucc with a rending of garments and a gnashing of teeth that resounded for years
They eventually had a choice between the Bucc or a Cessna 150 (alledgedly!
) and very, very reluctantly adopted the Bucc with a rending of garments and a gnashing of teeth that resounded for years
Had Ferranti ever demonstrated the TFR capabilty to be used in TSR2? If so, what happened to that capabilty? MRCA ground mapping and terrain following radars went to TI. I know the contract awards for MRCA were influenced by politics but why go to USA for the radars if Ferrani, or any other Panavia partner, had the capability?
A chiefy in the air radar bay at Bruggen told me back in '86 but I'm afraid I don't remember the exact details; he made it quite clear the TFR in his Tornados was nothing like as good as the TAR in F111s.
I'm afraid it all went over my head as a controller even though my brother joined as an ARM at Cosford in 1961.(I vaguely recall somethng about 200ft in there somewhere.)
I'm afraid it all went over my head as a controller even though my brother joined as an ARM at Cosford in 1961.(I vaguely recall somethng about 200ft in there somewhere.)
I know nothing of the TSR2 system but quite a lot about the Tornado system. It was made by Texas Instruments who also made the F111 system and I’m pretty sure they had very similar capabilities; ie automatic control of the aircraft to maintain a set clearance height above the terrain. I have always called that TFR. Terrain avoidance radar (in my world) was use of the mapping radar to keep above the terrain. Nowhere near as good as TFR but in the hands of a good operator, who had nothing else to do, might stop you hitting a hill.
Ferranti tested the TFR capability in, what else, a Buccaneer. Film of these trials was available on YouTube but sadly has now disappeared.
Possibly Ferranti's TFR might have used in the AFVG; if it hadn't been cancelled..
Went with the Halton branch of the RAeS to a lecture by crew members of the newly-arrived F-111s at Upper Heyfoed in the early 70's. They certainly left us with the impression that it was a terrain-following function of the radar/AFCS, and was entirely autonomous; even selectable between "hard" and "soft" ride.
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I know the feeling......................... you can pay $30- $80k for a 1975 C150 these days - I don't think they cost that new!!