MIG-27s at Shoeburyness
MOD Shoeburyness (Proof & Experimental Establishment) doesn't do 'target practice'. Aircraft there are/were used during weapons tests.
Not sure if this was an intended slight, but it comes across as one.
Not sure if this was an intended slight, but it comes across as one.
Went there in the early '80s. Saw a Lightning up on big concrete blocks, cockpit of a Victor tanker, a helicopter (can't remember the type) and to me a strange shape wing with a hole through it.
This was the TSR2 wing! sad
This was the TSR2 wing! sad
Went there early 70's for a CCF field day. More airframes than I think the RAF had in service at the time, including some some very rare and museum worthy ones. Two Bristol Type 188's (one now at Cosford) several TSR2 airframes and parts there of. I could weep.
Vast quantities of Supermarine Scimitars for certain, Vulcan B1's, Vampires or possibly venoms IIRC, long time ago
all stacked on their sides to save space. Their purpose was to test the effectiveness of anti aircraft weapon warheads exploding in close proximity and asses the likely survivability of the aircraft to continue flying. They also tested air dropped ordnance there (not dropped just detonated) and I stood in the crater made by a 1000lb bomb...... it was big 
. We were also taken to RAF White City and I stood next to a RR Avon as it was run up to 105%, something I would not do now, knowing how many have had their turbines let go over the years 
.
Vast quantities of Supermarine Scimitars for certain, Vulcan B1's, Vampires or possibly venoms IIRC, long time ago
all stacked on their sides to save space. Their purpose was to test the effectiveness of anti aircraft weapon warheads exploding in close proximity and asses the likely survivability of the aircraft to continue flying. They also tested air dropped ordnance there (not dropped just detonated) and I stood in the crater made by a 1000lb bomb...... it was big . We were also taken to RAF White City and I stood next to a RR Avon as it was run up to 105%, something I would not do now, knowing how many have had their turbines let go over the years .
It's hard to believe that wasn't malicious as it was the only TSR2 that ever flew.
Was the TSR2 program far enough down the road for it to have really fulfilled the status as 'Britains Great Hope etc etc actually realistic bearing in mind that sophisticated weapons systems like TSR2 tend to spiral upwards in cost . .
No country is especially good or bad at managing these programs and the Uk has had its share of projects that ballooned out of control but TSR2 always seems to be represented as a holy grail but as it was that much of a disaster that it was cancelled?
No country is especially good or bad at managing these programs and the Uk has had its share of projects that ballooned out of control but TSR2 always seems to be represented as a holy grail but as it was that much of a disaster that it was cancelled?
"Was the TSR2 program far enough down the road for it to have really fulfilled the status as 'Britain's Great Hope etc etc actually realistic"
No - still a lot of engine issues for a start. Reading about it 60 years on you get the impression that it became totemic - it was going to do EVERYTHING and was the last great hope of the old UK Aircraft industry. Cost control was even worse than it is today and the strategic mission was taken over by SSBN's. Some writers say it was a criminal conspiracy to scrap them. other that the Air Staff seem to have deliberately stuck their heads in the sand and ignored all the economic and political issues deliberately. Oddly the writers don't spilt along the usual lines - some who were pretty gung-ho about all thing aviation became "scrappers" and others, who had taken a cool view of British Aerospace became quite enthusiastic about the aircraft.
No - still a lot of engine issues for a start. Reading about it 60 years on you get the impression that it became totemic - it was going to do EVERYTHING and was the last great hope of the old UK Aircraft industry. Cost control was even worse than it is today and the strategic mission was taken over by SSBN's. Some writers say it was a criminal conspiracy to scrap them. other that the Air Staff seem to have deliberately stuck their heads in the sand and ignored all the economic and political issues deliberately. Oddly the writers don't spilt along the usual lines - some who were pretty gung-ho about all thing aviation became "scrappers" and others, who had taken a cool view of British Aerospace became quite enthusiastic about the aircraft.
I attended a lecture at The Towers in 1968 delivered by a Senior MoD Civilian. Inevitably there was a question from the floor about the TSR 2 cancellation. His ensuing grimace was followed by a very comprehensive reply about the whole thinking behind the aeroplane and how it no longer reflected the reality of the post British Empire U.K. in the world , The point about costs was made. At (IIRC) an actual unit price of around 7 to 8 million Sterling, the loss of one would equate financially ( and politically ) to that of a Destroyer. The oft quoted unacceptable political dimension again.
Despite the broadcasted howling,I was assured by many at the time of the cancellation (Father was in BAC) that there were quiet sighs of relief from certain quarters facing many of the project's ongoing major engineering and other technical issues .
Despite the broadcasted howling,I was assured by many at the time of the cancellation (Father was in BAC) that there were quiet sighs of relief from certain quarters facing many of the project's ongoing major engineering and other technical issues .
Last edited by Haraka; 5th Mar 2022 at 08:18.
Although the basic airframe was well on the way to meeting requirements and the engines were getting there, it was a recipe for disaster from the outset.
Pie in the sky operational requirements, (which amazingly, it was likely to meet), Vickers being lead contractors on a basically English Electric design, when EE were the only company with supersonic experience, Olympus engines when EE wanted Conways - again RR had supersonic experience, Bristol didn't - and many decisions being taken by massive unwieldy government committees instead of just one or two people.
Stanley Hooker remarked on one such committee meeting, where dozens of people turned up. The chairman adjourned the meeting until the afternoon and said only people who actually needed to be there should attend.
When they re-convened, even more people were there...
Pie in the sky operational requirements, (which amazingly, it was likely to meet), Vickers being lead contractors on a basically English Electric design, when EE were the only company with supersonic experience, Olympus engines when EE wanted Conways - again RR had supersonic experience, Bristol didn't - and many decisions being taken by massive unwieldy government committees instead of just one or two people.
Stanley Hooker remarked on one such committee meeting, where dozens of people turned up. The chairman adjourned the meeting until the afternoon and said only people who actually needed to be there should attend.
When they re-convened, even more people were there...
The subject has, of course, been thrashed to death on here over the years
There is a very good, comprehensive publication "TSR2 with Hindsight" published in 1998 by the RAF Historical Society ed AVM A. F. C Hunter ISBN 0-9519824 8 6 which covers a symposium in 1997 at Filton with apers from a load of the really important players - Beetham, Beaumont, Mears, Wragg, Page, Dell, Hine & Edwards etc etc
There is a very good, comprehensive publication "TSR2 with Hindsight" published in 1998 by the RAF Historical Society ed AVM A. F. C Hunter ISBN 0-9519824 8 6 which covers a symposium in 1997 at Filton with apers from a load of the really important players - Beetham, Beaumont, Mears, Wragg, Page, Dell, Hine & Edwards etc etc
As a microcosm of the shambles. I had the great privilege of being seconded to the RAF IAM during my University years. We still had a working mock up of the proposed F111K on site which was great fun to play in, On the flight safety side of TSR 2,incidentally, a committee of 22 (from all over the U.K. ) was convened to decide whether or not a Fire Axe should be included in the cockpit lay outs
After deep deliberation, . minutes taken and approved etc, etc, it was as decided in the end that "Yes, fire axes should be included in the crew locations.
The committee was then , in due course, fully reconvened in order to discuss the possible locations for these axes.........
After deep deliberation, . minutes taken and approved etc, etc, it was as decided in the end that "Yes, fire axes should be included in the crew locations.
The committee was then , in due course, fully reconvened in order to discuss the possible locations for these axes.........
Coming back on topic the MiG23/27s currently in the UK don't seem to have have visited Shoeburyness. They are ex-Lativia;perhaps, in view of Ukraine, they would like them back.....
