Britannia Airways and the Boeing 707
Rog747,
I joined Britannia in 1979 and recall flying with a captain who had been involved in the stretched DC-8 project. He would have been the fleet captain if it had gone ahead.
Just how much momentum or traction the project gathered, what the aeroplanes would have been used for or when they would have been bought/leased I can't tell you.
I joined Britannia in 1979 and recall flying with a captain who had been involved in the stretched DC-8 project. He would have been the fleet captain if it had gone ahead.
Just how much momentum or traction the project gathered, what the aeroplanes would have been used for or when they would have been bought/leased I can't tell you.
1979 was much later in the day of course, and I must say BY and Thomsons were quiet about DC-8's and as to whom it was sourcing a/c from ? -
BY's order and planning from 1979/1980 for new 767-200's to be delivered in early 1984 may have had some effect - as did the 1979 Oil Crisis caused by the depose of the Shah of Iran.
I cannot think of any holiday markets at that time (1979) that Thomsons or BY were looking at to warrant flying DC-8 63's - Maybe Mombasa and again back to the Caribbean >?
It would be more than 10 years on before the 767's would start flying to such far away places, and the 767ER also began regular charter flights to MCO etc, and also, initially from LTN to Australia, as well as to New Zealand the following year.
British Midland striving at this time to obtain scheduled route licences to fly from LHR to the USA were also looking at DC-8 63's, but in 1981 decided to fully refurbish it's 3 707C's with new seats/galleys and a wide-look cabin interior, with a view to use these as a stop gap if the CAA awarded the lucrative NYC routes (That never happened) but the 3 smart a/c ended up on Summer IT's to the Med and the Canarias, plus USA and Canada charter flights, with weekend Ski flights in the winter. They flew from 1982 until sold in 1985.
BMA must have spent a lot of money on these 3 refurb's - one of which was converting an ex Pan Am 707-321C, a pure new build cargo/freighter 707 to a Pax a/c.
WHBM, mentions the Caledonian AW 707C fleet, and about Caledonian's Mediterranean IT charterers, of which yes, were almost wholly flown from 1969 on their 3, then 4 new One-Eleven 500s, from GLA, MAN and LGW. (Caledonian still used their Britannia's until 1970)
Their 707's flew IT's mostly at peak summer weekends usually on W patterns from LGW to PMI, IBZ and ALC. The W's were to MAN or GLA, back to LGW, usually on alternate fortnights.
Delays often built up over the weekend.
Tenerife (TCI) was usually for Horizon weekly on a Sunday from LGW, and to both RHO and NIC (Cyprus) were also flown on the 707 for Horizon and Wings.
When BCAL was formed these Med 707 IT's seemed to stop in the main, except the TCI and NIC.
They flew these shorter 707 IT's from summer 1968 to peaking in 1970/1971 then only a few after 1972, usually PMI, with the TCI staying on until Horizon was bought by Court Line.
Mooncrest,
mentions how the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets - whereas in the USA and Canada the DC-8 and DC-8 Stretch was the most popular type used by the affinity group charter airlines, such as ONA Seaboard Loftleidir Universal Saturn AFA TIA Airlift and Capitol, with CP Air in Canada.
World and Wardair used 707C's, as did International Air Bahama at first, who switched to a DC-8, as did World AW and Airlift re-equipping with DC-8 63PF's.
mentions how the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets -
Lloyd went on to acquire 3 707's from 1970.
G- Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 46062 05/08/1969 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6163A)
G-Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 46061 03/07/1969 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6162A)
G-Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 45969 20/08/1968 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6161A)
Not sure when Britannia AW was looking at the 727 ''officially'' - guess that was around 1966/67 as the first new 737's came in July 1968?
Court Line were reported looking at new 727-200 and the DC-8 63
Dan Air's first 3 727-100 arrived in the UK for summer 1973 with extra mod's required for CAA certification.
BMA looked at 3 727-100 before the DC-9 was acquired in 1976.
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Rog747, I've said it before, you have an excellent book to write in there somewhere, all ancient history these days but bu@@er me it's utterly fascinating. I really would go back in a heartbeat.
Airlift DC-8s I recall seeing, was there a CIA connection?
Airlift DC-8s I recall seeing, was there a CIA connection?
Dan Air's first 3 727-100 arrived in the UK for summer 1973 with extra mod's required for CAA certification.
the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets - whereas in the USA and Canada the DC-8 and DC-8 Stretch was the most popular type used by the affinity group charter airlines, such as ONA Seaboard Loftleidir Universal Saturn AFA TIA Airlift and Capitol, with CP Air in Canada.
World and Wardair used 707C's, as did International Air Bahama at first, who switched to a DC-8, as did World AW and Airlift re-equipping with DC-8 63PF's.
World and Wardair used 707C's, as did International Air Bahama at first, who switched to a DC-8, as did World AW and Airlift re-equipping with DC-8 63PF's.
Of course, there was a lot of prior UK experience, both aircrew and engineering, from BOAC initially selecting the 707, then British Eagle doing so from the Eagle-Cunard-BOAC tieup, Eagle going under and personnel becoming available (particularly at Laker), the DC-8 not being UK certified, etc.
In the USA the buildup to the Vietnam war saw several mainstream US carriers buy significant 707-320C fleets specifically for this - Pan Am, Braniff and Continental particularly. Just as they took delivery the DC8-63F came along, the Defence Department liked this better, and placed a whole range of contracts, not with mainstream carriers but with the supplementals, who until then had staggered along with old cheap Connies and such like. They all placed orders for the new Big Doug as specified, which their salesmen readily signed up; the resulting production meltdown at Long Beach and some inappropriate subcontracting which didn't work was one of the key reasons for the end of Douglas independence. These also took over all the US military traffic to Europe, principally Germany, which the many commercial transatlantic charters were very integrated with in aircraft scheduling, often just being back-hauls to military work.
Thread Starter
It goes without saying that whichever airline introduced the 727 to the British register would have paid the certification costs (I think that's the rule). But, bearing in mind that Dan Air's first 727s were the 100 series, it's likely that Britannia would have opted for the then current production model, i .e. the Advanced 200. I don't know if the CAA required any modifications to this variant. In any event, it was again Dan Air that introduced the 200 to the UK in about 1980.
Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?
Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?
I wonder Channel Airways never got hit with the same when they put the 4+3 across seating into the Trident.
It goes without saying that whichever airline introduced the 727 to the British register would have paid the certification costs (I think that's the rule). But, bearing in mind that Dan Air's first 727s were the 100 series, it's likely that Britannia would have opted for the then current production model, i .e. the Advanced 200. I don't know if the CAA required any modifications to this variant. In any event, it was again Dan Air that introduced the 200 to the UK in about 1980.
Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?
Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?
I guess this post should be in 'Boeing 727 Holiday jets'....
The first trio from JAL were all flown into the UK during Q4 1972 - Not sure where the extra door Mods were done> Boeing?
They all certainly were on the airline's books to fly holiday IT's as 146 seaters from Spring 1973 - seating was pretty tight.
I was invited on a LGW-PMI-LGW Fam Day trip at that time (by Intasun I think)
The 727 was due to do a W from PMI to MAN and back, giving us a full day in Majorca.
We were so horrendously delayed by ATC on the ground at LGW after boarding that we got off and did not bother to go!
The second pair of ex JAL 727's came in 1974 - one was G-BDAN, lost on let down to TCI 4/1980 (Thomas Cook Holidays flight MAN-TCI)
All of these 5 727-046 were the only one's that got the extra rear Type 1 doors fitted to enable over the 150 pax limit.
The 6th a/c came from Burma in 1976 (built for Pacific AL)
The next pair, ex Delta/Northeast AL, came in 1977.
These 3 were not modified and seated 131 pax - these often flew IT's for West German tourists from the Berlin TXL base.
In 1974 TSA Transair Sweden offered their 3 727-134 to DA, but chose to merge and then sell them to SAS/Scanair.
These 3 727's had very high hours, and 1 was a 727-134C with a higher empty weight.
Other 727-100 IT operators in Europe were -->
Condor from 1965. (Lufthansa a/c also)
Icelandair - Flugfelag Islands used theirs on IT's from 1967.
Sabena flying for Sobelair from 1967.
Hapag Lloyd also bought some from Japan (and 1 from Sabena) starting in 1972 and had 8 on fleet by 1976.
plus Pan Am from Berlin TXL at weekends.
I guess this post should be in 'Boeing 727 Holiday jets'....SWBKCB
Just to be specific, a key mod the UK CAA required, the insertion of an extra door in the fuselage, was not a 727 issue per-se, but was because of the high seat count Dan-Air was going to put into them -
I wonder Channel Airways never got hit with the same when they put the 4+3 across seating into the Trident.
I wonder Channel Airways never got hit with the same when they put the 4+3 across seating into the Trident.
I think the Trident One E-140 was allowed up to a max of 149 pax>?
(One more door than a Trident 2)
The Trident 3B, stretched for up to 180 seats, had five doors, including now one door placed aft, however just two, but larger over wing exits.
BEA/BA deactivated the mid cabin service door - but it was there.
They were up to > 140Y.
Later BA Shuttle a/c were 146Y
The 727-100 had only two Type 1 doors and four over wing exits - 131-134 pax was the norm for them. (They had the rear air stairs too but this was not a main exit?)
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As regards exit door limits, 4 main doors and one overwing exit each side meant a maximum of 149 seats (and still does). When Monarch bought Boeing 720Bs from Northwest with this layout, they had them modified at Boeing Wichita with an extra overwing exit each side (as on the 707 and which had always been an option, rarely specified, on the 720). This meant they could put as many seats as they could fit in up to the legal maximum for this layout of 189.
We used to have a fascinating experienced poster here, 411A (named after his personal Cessna light aircraft) who had both 707 and DC8 past experience, as well as his all-time favourite Tristar, and who would leapt at such a comparison, but I'm afraid he headed for the heavens some years ago, a sad loss to all.
Mind you, during the 70s (when this would have been happening) Britannia engineering looked after the IAS DC-8s, which came to Luton for their hangar visits.
Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...
Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...
Mind you, during the 70s (when this would have been happening) Britannia engineering looked after the IAS DC-8s, which came to Luton for their hangar visits.
Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...
Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...
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Correct, 9J-ABR was ex Alitalia. An educational moment; I either didn't know or had forgotten the DC-8 43s had Conways!
I think the only secondhand sale of any consequence of them was Air Canada selling a couple to Cubana, avoiding issues with US engines when there was a US sales ban on P&W spares to Cuba.
