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Holiday jets again - this time, the Boeing 707 and 720

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Holiday jets again - this time, the Boeing 707 and 720

Old 4th Jun 2021, 01:24
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sotonsean View Post
Cathay Pacific Airways purchased 12 former Northwest Orient Boeing 707 aircraft in 1971.

Cathay Pacific Airways first Boeing 707-355C VR-HGH entered service on the 24 August 1971 from Hong Kong to Tokyo via Taipei and Osaka.
Indeed. I think by about 1975, just after the last Convair 880 had gone and before the first Tristar arrived, Cathay's fleet may have been wholly 707. Suppose you could make a point that they never bought a new one - they were all secondhand from Northwest.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 12:42
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Avianca:- https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/411727590919516715/ Flew in one.
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Old 7th Jun 2021, 17:04
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Standard Airways, Seattle based, operated a pair of ex Qantas 138Bs. One came to a very sticky end at YVR 8/02/68. It was chartered to CP and in their colours when it arrived back at Vancouver from Honolulu and landing in zero vis demolished two buildings four light aircraft and hit a couple of DC8s. Only two dead.
That was the end of Standard and they went bust owing money to everyone at Seatac.
Pacific Western bought the remaining aircraft which was sent to Tulsa for major by AA.
We picked it up from there and had to clear US customs outbound at Seatac. It was still in Standard Airways colours with a very small Canadian registration. No-one wanted to know us and it took some persuading to get a parking finger and ground handling.
PWA operated this and another ex Qantas 138B for a couple of years based at YVR. Gatwick was the main destination and Dusseldorf the next most popular. Usually had to tech stop Keflavik eastbound and Sondestrom westbound.

Winter was mainly Honolulu or Puerto Vallarta out of the prairies. Arriving back into Saskatoon or Calgary in the early hours of the morning the prairie farmers would have a long walk across the ramp in minus 30C in their newly acquired Hawaiian shirts and shorts.















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Old 7th Jun 2021, 18:19
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Quietplease View Post
Standard Airways, Seattle based, operated a pair of ex Qantas 138Bs. One came to a very sticky end at YVR 8/02/68.
Description and photos of the accident here :

The Fate of Canadian Pacific Airlines' Boeing 707 by Henry Tenby | Henry Tenby - Classic Airline DVDs / Entrepreneur / and more

Quite surprised that the sister aircraft with PWA had to stop between Vancouver and London. These early Qantas 707s were a shortened version for extra range, and when refitted with fan engines produced a pretty capable aircraft. I went into Sondrestrom on Wardair's 727, but never on their 707-320Cs, same engines, larger airframe. Pretty sure Laker used to do Gatwick to LAX with their -138Bs.
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 07:34
  #65 (permalink)  
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Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707.

I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.


Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.

Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 09:57
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707. I was current on the B707 at the time
Were you satisfied with the PF's performance on this important journey, or too dazed and in-love to notice ? ;-)
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 11:25
  #67 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by thegypsy View Post
Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707.

I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.


Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.

Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
I never knew it was permitted to be current on more than one type. Did the similarity of the 707 and 737 cockpits have anything to do with this ?
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 12:06
  #68 (permalink)  
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Re B707/B737 This was overseas so they made their own rules. Not a problem.

Just had to remember to trim down when selecting Flaps 14.
​​​

Cannot remember what landing was like!!!
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 15:04
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Description and photos of the accident here :

The Fate of Canadian Pacific Airlines' Boeing 707 by Henry Tenby | Henry Tenby - Classic Airline DVDs / Entrepreneur / and more

Quite surprised that the sister aircraft with PWA had to stop between Vancouver and London. These early Qantas 707s were a shortened version for extra range, and when refitted with fan engines produced a pretty capable aircraft. I went into Sondrestrom on Wardair's 727, but never on their 707-320Cs, same engines, larger airframe. Pretty sure Laker used to do Gatwick to LAX with their -138Bs.
LGW-LAX was tight on the BCAL 320Cs. We occasionally had to drop into Las Vegas or Salt Lake or Edmonton. Not a hope in 138B.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 08:00
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707-138B

The 707-138B versus the -320B or C could not do the same missions.

The -320B/C ADV had more powerful engines and a higher fuel capacity (23800 v 17300 US gallons), and of course a 151000 kgs MTOW v 129000 kgs on the smaller 707.
The -138B had the same MTOW as a -120B, but was 10' shorter and thus had a lighter OEW.

Laker and BWIA who flew the -138B to the Caribbean from LGW both stopped usually at the Azores, or Gander/Bangor.
Laker used the smaller 707 to assist the Skytrain start up and could make JFK.
Laker carried 154/158 pax.

Qantas longest -138B sectors were SYD-SIN HNL-NAN SFO-HNL YVR-HNL JFK-SFO LHR-JFK LHR-BDA
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.

PER-MRU was not a -138B route but a newer -338C was used from 1966.

QF's -138B's had a usual config of 20F and 84Y, or 20F/78Y, or 28F/66Y all with a F lounge.
F had 42'' and Y had at least a 34'' pitch.
(There was until 1965, 20F/72Y)
There was also a 120Y.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 10:46
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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The Fiesta route through Mexico did not attract the best loads, and was thus often used to place "10 emigrants" to Australia, for whom Qantas had the contract. For those uncertain of the geography, it must have made Australia seem a very long way away indeed.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 11:24
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas longest -138B sectors were SYD-SIN HNL-NAN SFO-HNL YVR-HNL JFK-SFO LHR-JFK LHR-BDA
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.
What were the diversion airports when flying the long overwater Pacific legs ? Obviously Qantas were (perhaps still are) the world's safest airline in terms of lack of major incidents, so the routes were well planned and executed, but all the same....
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 12:46
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
What were the diversion airports when flying the long overwater Pacific legs ? Obviously Qantas were (perhaps still are) the world's safest airline in terms of lack of major incidents, so the routes were well planned and executed, but all the same....
Well there was no early ETOPS (was it 60 minutes for a twin jet back then? and with a 4 engined jet if you lost one you carried on to the nearest, or turned back if you could, the nearest of course, could be in the case of the Pacific be your actual destination.

There was Wake and Midway islands used but they were way North of the Fiesta Route.
From Fuji you then have American Samoa and the Cook islands, and New Caledonia behind you.
Not much else then until HNL...

I saw on Facebook a post about UTA flying their Caravelles on their Pacific feeder routes to Oz, and they did SYD and BNE direct -Noumea. No idea what sort of basic ''ETOPS'' there was in those days.
I thought it was 60 mins...
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 14:09
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
Well there was no early ETOPS (was it 60 minutes for a twin jet back then? ... I saw on Facebook a post about UTA flying their Caravelles on their Pacific feeder routes to Oz, and they did SYD and BNE direct -Noumea. No idea what sort of basic ''ETOPS'' there was in those days. I thought it was 60 mins...
I believe the 60 minutes was an FAA issue only for US-registered aircraft.

There were several early twin jet over-ocean operators, of which Sterling Airways of Denmark, with Caravelles, had to be the leader. They ran these regularly on holiday flights transatlantic to San Francisco, or to Natal in northern Brazil, staging through the Canaries, or to Thailand, across the Bay of Bengal.

UTA had just two Caravelles, at opposite ends of the earth. One ran from Paris a few times a week to obscure African points which did not merit a DC8, the other was based between Papeete and Noumea, two onetime French colonies in the South Pacific, and ran between them and to Australia and New Zealand. Likewise Fiji Airways, later badged as Air Pacific, ran a One-Eleven on routes which were wholly over water, to the same set of destinations. The French air force also based a couple of Caravelles at Papeete which ran out to the nuclear testing grounds on oddball French South Pacific islands in the middle of nowhere, and I understand they and UTA sometimes chartered their aircraft back and forth. I don't believe any of these long overwater twin operations ever came to grief
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 15:09
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Longest sector I did with Qantas on the 138 was 8.20 SYD-SIN. Longest on a PWA 138 was beginning of season empty ferry LGW-YVR 9.45.
Longest on a BCAL 320C was LGW - LAX 11.40
On the Qantas fiesta route we would position SYD - PPT -SYD on UTA DC8 which had a proper bar at the front of first class.
No diversions on PPT-ACA, it's very empty across there. Qantas had amazingly good navigators (apart from the chief nav who used to pass up heading chits with half degree alterations. This was the man who was twice so far off track into HNL they were intercepted by the USAF ) this was long before inertial or gps and the loran coverage was not good so astro all the way.
ACA departure both ways was at night. It was a very new airport so they hadn't quite sorted out the runway lighting. There was a cable crossing the runway about a third from the end and that would sometimes break as you crossed it making for an interesting final part of the takeoff.
Once did a triple Tahiti-Mexico shuttle. Two weeks in Tahiti was tough!
Tahiti had only three flights a week UTA Qantas and PanAm out of HNL.

rog747 knows more about the details of the Qantas aircraft than I do although I used to fly them! It was a long time ago.I don't remember the first lounge. There was a crew bunk opposite the first class galley.

Never saw UTA Caravelles in SYD. We did SYD- NOU in the 707, only about 2.20 flight time so always somewhere within an hour.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 16:38
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Thank you for the replies. I suppose the long overwater flights are often a planned leap of faith and as said, no-one came to grief! I hadn't realised that UTA used their Caravelle on such long routes, 2 engines to infinity and beyond! Were these 2 examples the ones that went to Air Afrique by chance ? UTA was a decent enough airline, although I only flew the 'shorter' legs to the French Caribbean/Florida from Paris on the DC-10's
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 17:39
  #77 (permalink)  
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I note the theme about Caravelles operating miles away from their various HQs. I've read that in the 1970s, Britannia Airways 737s could be seen in the Far East and southeast Asia. I don't know if this was before, during or after their pair of 707s was doing the rounds.
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 08:53
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WHBM 60 minutes was not a US only rule
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 09:33
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Wasn't the rule that sectors longer tha 60 minutes from an alternative airport require more than 2 engines? Hence 4 engined transports. AFAIK the rule still exists, but an exception is accepted for twin jet engines with proven reliabilty of more then so and so hours per engine inop, including essential systems. That exception is certified as ETOPS, and if demonstrated at first delivery of the type as Early-ETOPS.
What is WHBM? There is no google for it.
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 10:20
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It's a poster's 'handle'.
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