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Air Europe at NCL

Old 18th Oct 2020, 18:39
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mooncrest View Post
I believe Air Europe had a spotless safety record.
There was only one serious incident that could have been more unpleasant (thankfully not) was an Air Europe Fokker 100 PH-ZCL Dec 1989 that experienced dense flight deck smoke when landing in Copenhagen. It took off from Copenhagen to Gatwick and suffered a flight deck fire, necessitating an immediate return to Kastrup Airport. None of the 88 occupants (seven crew and 81 passengers) were harmed by the fire that had started behind the co-pilot's seat. The aircraft needed to be taken out of service and was sent for repairs elsewhere in the Netherlands. It re-entered service on 22 June 1990.

It's weird they entered servcie with AE when I was there - they got 2 new ones (unwanted by KLM) and 2 ordered for AE.
Whenever you went on board, apart from the new aeroplane smell you could always smell a sort of electrical burning. Funny that.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 19:42
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Another incident was the hard landing of 757 G-BLVH in 1987, resulting in significant structural damage to the nose landing gear and forward fuselage.

Air Europe 757 @ FNC

While I would not dispute AE had an excellent safety record, I would also point out they only operated for a little under 12 years and for early years were a fairly small airline compared to many of their longer lived and/or larger competitors.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 07:31
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Downwind_Left View Post
Another incident was the hard landing of 757 G-BLVH in 1987, resulting in significant structural damage to the nose landing gear and forward fuselage.

Air Europe 757 @ FNC

AE had an excellent safety record,
Ah yes I forgot about that one, and Monarch also bent a 757 at GIB.

Also IIRC an AE or an Air Europa 757 had a tail scrape at TFS one night - Was that so?

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Old 19th Oct 2020, 08:03
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Spantax - Safety

Rog747

Significant thread drift, but I never realised that Spantax had such an abysmal safety record. I makes you understand just how much safer air travel is today than 50 years ago, yet even back then it was, quite rightly, touted as the safest means of transport. Any airline seriously bending as many aircraft, in proportion to their overall fleet size, today would have been out of business in no time. Unless they were in South America perhaps.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 09:11
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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ATN; Yes, h u g e drift. From AE at NCL to prangs at FNC. Interesting Stat provider (sorry, just can't wade through it all ) asks of 1985 "still no AE through NCL). I joined in 1983 and logged many "W" patterns through NCL. Indeed, Command Assessment trip was LGW-NCL-LGW in 1985. We were handled by DAN (hardly trying to see them off the turf ?) .

Just on the F100 issue, we all wondered about the fokker additions but history, if you really get into it, will show why. Indeed at one Staff/ Management meeting, I bravely stood up & asked why we were fielding a F100 on the Rome service against BA 767. Management clone, suspected BA plant retorted, "Well, better you just fly the planes and leave us to "manage ." I joined a steady group who walked out for fresh air.

Back on thread though; Passed the Assessment & went on to many NCL visits but we were never Based there. Pity. Loved the place. AE & NCL !
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 23:17
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flightrider View Post
Newcastle 1985 charter programme:has no AE flying at NCL listed. It's fascinating to look back at some of the variety though:

Saturday evening with two JAT 727s and an Aviaco/Iberia A300 on the ground together from Pula, Dubrovnik and Palma
Britannia 767 following shortly afterwards on a late-night visit from Palma with two Aviaco DC9s also from Palma after that on Saturday evening/night
Sunday morning two Adria DC9s (Ljubljana and Pula), another Aviaco DC9 (Ibiza) and an Aeroflot TU154 on St Petersburg and Moscow charters
Monday Orion 737 positioning ex Glasgow for Corfu and back, another Aviaco DC9 (Mahon this time) and a Cyprus Airways 707 to/from Paphos
Wednesday morning Aviogenex TU134 from Pula, a Wednesday afternoon Cyprus Airways 707 to/from Larnaca this time, and another Aviogenex TU134 on Wednesday evening to/from Dubrovnik alongside an Air Atlantis 737 from/to Faro
Friday Aviogenex TU134 from Split, an Aviaco DC9 from/to Tenerife (long-haul in a DC9-34!!), a JAT DC9-32 to/from Rijeka and another Aviaco late night from/to Gerona

How times change! This was alongside the based Dan-Air and Britannia 737s with the Dan-Air 146 also doing weekend charters,

1988 for Newcastle had two based Britannia and two based Dan-Air 737-200s
Hispania 737 to/from Tenerife early hours of Saturday morning
JAT 727 on DBV-NCL-DBV Saturday morning
Dan-Air 1-11 MAH-NCL-MAH Saturday afternoon for Airtours
Spantax MD83 PMI-NCL-PMI Saturday afternoon for Intasun with a Hispania 733 following up for Horizon not long after
Paramount MD83 positioned in from BFS on Saturday night for a part-week programme
Universair 737 from Palma (Intasun) and Air Malta in together in the early hours of Sunday morning
Sunday morning Wardair 747, Aviogenex TU134 (Pula), Air Atlantis 727 (Faro), Adria DC9 (Split)
Sunday afternoon Dan-Air 1-11-500 from/to Faro for Airtours
Monday Worldways Canada DC8 from Toronto via Prestwick, Spantax 767 from/to Palma, Aviogenex TU134 from Ljubljana, Toros Air 727 to/from Izmir (Intasun again), Monarch 757 from/to Mahon, Britannia 767 from/to Gerona and an Air Atlantis 737 from/to Faro
Tuesday had no less than three Dan-Air 1-11s on W patterns from Mahon, Alicante and Palma!
Wednesday JAT DC9 from/to Pula, Aviogenex TU134 from/to Split, a Cyprus Airways A310 late night with a Britannia 767 on a very late night w from Alicante
Thursday BIA 1-11-500 from/to Faro, Adria DC9 from/to Pula and a JAT 737-300 from/to Dubrovnik
Friday Spantax 767 from/to Palma, a Dan-Air 1-11 from/to Ibiza, JAT DC9 on Pula, Orion 737 on a W pattern to Athens.
and still no Air Europe - but I think this was the year Spantax went bust so the 767s probably didn't happen, if I remember rightly?

1991 had a based IEA 737, three Britannia 737-200s, a part-based Dan-Air 727-200 and the Dan-Air 737-400 flying for Airtours and a part-based Air 2000 757 which did a 10-night Palma instead of positioning - that also flew some Bangor/Orlando flying and Monarch had a 757 coming through NCL on the same. Visitors including Aviogenex 737, Andalusair MD83, a ZAS Airlines of Egypt A300 which positioned up from Luton every Sunday for a Larnaca roundtrip for Owners Abroad, Air Atlantis 737-300, a Monday Air UK Leisure 737-400 from/to Corfu, Tuesday Nationalr 757 on Toronto, Thursday night Sultan Air 737 from/to Faro, two Royal Air Maroc flights on Friday night (727 Agadir and 737 on Tangier) and another Andalusair MD83 on Friday night from/to Palma.

Ncl flyer (hope they don’t mind me mentioning) has a Twitter feed with lots of pictures at Newcastle from this era. Well worth a look.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 09:09
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Landflap : Got to join the "me too" brigade. Also did a Command "Training" line trip through NCL with AE but in 1982/3. Strange ,regular "w" pattern. LGW-NCL ; we got off. Another AE 737 would waltz in from somewhere, aircraft change and blast off in the one we brought up. After a further hour or so in the NCL transit lounge, we would then board and head for Gatters. Both LGW-NCL-LGW were empty sectors to facilitate the aircraft change at NCL. DAN did indeed carry out engineering for us at NCL and Serviceair for pax handling. Blimey, no wonder we went bust.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 09:21
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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What a waste. How many thousand quid did that cost i wonder?
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 12:00
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Mac : tongue in cheek of course. AE went on until 1992. Outsourcing Engineering and handling often causes this sort of thing. Commercial Planning/Engineer Planning and outsourced activity can cause a major head-ache. But hey (?) that's why we fly the planes and Management manage eh ? - See my post =45= .
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 13:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Used to have the full four volumes of the original British Independent Airlines written by Tony Merton-Jones. I believe it was updated some time later but never purchased the new edition.
This is indeed British Independent Airlines 1945-75 by Tony M-J, also longstanding editor of Propliner magazine. Originally in 4 paperbacked A4 volumes. It was later reprinted in a single hardback volume with new colour photos, but the actual text is the same. Published by Aviation Hobby Shop in West Drayton. Long ago a follow up was proposed, but I don't think it ever happened. I believe Tony was a CAA staffer at Swanwick and had access to all the records.

Air Europe was owned by Harry Goodman, who also owned Intasun/ILG, I believe managed all along from their start-up HQ in Ramsbottom, north of Manchester. Goodman used Dan-Air a lot and found two of their key executives had fallen out with Fred Newman because they wanted new aircraft and Newman was fine, as ever, with secondhand, so that was the start of the airline. At first they had some tie-up with BA, and some of the initial 757s went back and forth between the two - including an Air Europe 757 that became a semi-regular on the Manchester-Heathrow BA Shuttle for some time. The MD-11 order with Rolls-Royce engines is perplexing; was the order ever confirmed, and were either McDD or RR wholly behind the project ? If nothing else it would have been difficult to get financing on them, the lessors would have been cautious about being left with an orphan fleet on their hands.

Before AE started they were principal users of Dan-Air, indeed taking night flights left over when the bulk of the capacity had been sold. They did the same with Transeuropa, a Spanish Caravelle charter operator of the late 1970s, which put them into various UK airports for 2am departures. German tour operators apparently refused to have UK-style night IT flights - 6am first departures or midnight returns, OK, but not midnight departures and 6am returns, so there was space in what Transeuropa had sold (principally to Germany).

Back to the title, if I'm not mistaken ILG had bought out Airways Holidays, the major Newcastle-based tour operator of the time, who traditionally had chartered Tridents from Northeast (I nearly said BKS, and they possibly went back that far), so had a considerable established customer base. Northeast Newcastle-based Tridents used to do a morning business trip to Heathrow and back, then a short daytime IT to the Med, then another Heathrow rounder in the evening, and finally another night IT to Palma or wherever. I guess Air Europe inherited much of this customer base.

Once met (as you do) a holiday rep in the Canaries who had been lead rep there for ILG in their time; she described the amazing circus that came when Goodman arrived each year to negotiate with the hotel owners about next year's rates, with the local and other reps, plus a couple of AE flight attendants, all in uniform sat surrounding him ...

Last edited by WHBM; 4th Nov 2020 at 13:29.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 20:03
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Really interesting WHBM, And just to corroborate the above, my first flight NCL to PMI on a Transeuopa caravelle through the night (left uk at midnight, returned 11pm) with one of the tour operators mentioned. Too young to remember anything about it but have a picture of inside the cabin, before window blinds there were lovely orange curtains which I suspect were a fire risk....
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 21:11
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Do you mean Tae rather than Trans-Europa? Tae mainly did Germany and only turned up in the UK at odd times
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 21:22
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Do you mean Tae rather than Trans-Europa? Tae mainly did Germany and only turned up in the UK at odd times

definitely TransEuropa if directed at me! Can’t answer if not! My parents kept the in flight meal (cold) as I’d fallen asleep so we had a little plastic tray with the TransEuropa and their “T” on for years after. Also cross checked about 10 years later against Air North “magazines” for 1979.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 21:58
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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The MD-11 order with Rolls-Royce engines is perplexing; was the order ever confirmed, and were either McDD or RR wholly behind the project ? If nothing else it would have been difficult to get financing on them, the lessors would have been cautious about being left with an orphan fleet on their hands.
I think you'll find that the MD11s being powered by RR engines in the first place underpinned the financing arrangements for the aircraft. I'm not 100% sure of this, but believe there were some reverse pre-delivery payments (the engine manufacturer paid the airline more than it had to pay to the manufacturer in up-front deposits and payments for the aircraft). It was an "interesting" financing arrangement but typical of some of the AE fleet financing arrangements which were....ground-breaking, shall we say.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 06:56
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Do you mean Tae rather than Trans-Europa? Tae mainly did Germany and only turned up in the UK at odd times
No, TAE (Trabajos Aereos y Enlaces, or something like that) was a separate and smaller operation, I recall vaguely they only had two or three old Caravelles, came from Sterling, possibly only leased, after making the transition from the DC6, and indeed were not around in the UK much at all. Both TAE and Transeuropa operated the newer, less common, Super Caravelle, stretched and with P&W engines; Transeuropa actually bought some new ones, and had run subcontract flights for Iberia with the aircraft in Iberia's colours for a while.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 07:05
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Originally Posted by GBYAJ View Post
definitely TransEuropa if directed at me! Can’t answer if not! My parents kept the in flight meal (cold) as I’d fallen asleep so we had a little plastic tray with the TransEuropa and their “T” on for years after. Also cross checked about 10 years later against Air North “magazines” for 1979.
TAE were not that regular in to the UK, (they had super Caravelles and DC8's and flew mainly Spain/Canaries to Germany and Scandinavia)

whereas Transeuropa (flying 10R & 11R Caravelles) were frequent at many UK regionals, as were Spantax, Air Spain, and TASSA at the very start, along with Aviaco.

Re Airways Holidays in the North East - they certainly were using BKS on their package holiday flights from the early 1960's from NCL, LBA and MME (Brits and Viscounts).
They were mostly only flown at weekends and night time.
They of course used the new BKS Tridents from NCL and MME from summer 1969 along with a few other tour operators such as Global, but again mostly at weekends.

Swans Tours of Oxford St in London also became a large Northeast Trident operator for their IT MED charters from LHR, again mainly flown on SATS & SUNS but with some mid week flights as well including night flights from LHR. They were so busy that at summer peaks sometimes 3 or all 4 of their Trident fleet were being used.
Swans also flew a large SKI program too in the winter at weekends with Northeast from LHR to MUC ZRH MXP & TUR
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