TSR-2 (Merged a few times)
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This has always been a highly contentious issue and one that will forever live as perfect example of politicians interfereing in matters they have no conception of. They, and their advisors, make crass decisions that make or break a country or, indeed, the industries within it. Those that are power hungry are worse than any of the idiots who call themselves politicians.
Those with power, like Mountbottom as BEAgle calls him, I suspect because he doesn't like using his name in the same breath as TSR2, was a perfect example of a power hungry, toffee nosed aristocrat who used his position to abuse the system one way or another but always for his own ends. A Commander he wasn't, and proved it with his disastrous raid on Dieppe and then persauded those who questioned his integrity and wisdom which cost so many uneccessary lives, that it was "worth the trip" to test the German defences. But who but a bloody clown would dare send tanks on to a shingle beach with cliffs in their faces? Crass stupidity. A track laying vehicle cannot cope with soft shingle like that at Dieppe but he ignored the advice given to him.
Then we get to TSR2. He thought that he could save the Royal Navy buy belittling TSR2 and daring to say to Australia, you can have five of these (F-111's) for one of them(TSR2) - another crass example of his stupidity when trying to be a politician.
He cost this country dear and used his grandiose position as a platform to enhance his own self importance I refuse to mention Burma but I will mention that he proved to be a fool as Viceroy of India so maybe it was, at last, that someone stood up to him and bought him home.
The end to his life is not one I would wish on anyone but it did somehow seem a strange end for a man who would have expected the grandest of the grand. That he didn't get it does have a sense of justice I fancy. But then who am I to say.
I loved TSR2 and it will always be that its cancellation was a huge mistake. Why is it that the aircraft industry has been consistently destroyed by politicians who wouldn't know one end an aeroplane from the other!
Those with power, like Mountbottom as BEAgle calls him, I suspect because he doesn't like using his name in the same breath as TSR2, was a perfect example of a power hungry, toffee nosed aristocrat who used his position to abuse the system one way or another but always for his own ends. A Commander he wasn't, and proved it with his disastrous raid on Dieppe and then persauded those who questioned his integrity and wisdom which cost so many uneccessary lives, that it was "worth the trip" to test the German defences. But who but a bloody clown would dare send tanks on to a shingle beach with cliffs in their faces? Crass stupidity. A track laying vehicle cannot cope with soft shingle like that at Dieppe but he ignored the advice given to him.
Then we get to TSR2. He thought that he could save the Royal Navy buy belittling TSR2 and daring to say to Australia, you can have five of these (F-111's) for one of them(TSR2) - another crass example of his stupidity when trying to be a politician.
He cost this country dear and used his grandiose position as a platform to enhance his own self importance I refuse to mention Burma but I will mention that he proved to be a fool as Viceroy of India so maybe it was, at last, that someone stood up to him and bought him home.
The end to his life is not one I would wish on anyone but it did somehow seem a strange end for a man who would have expected the grandest of the grand. That he didn't get it does have a sense of justice I fancy. But then who am I to say.
I loved TSR2 and it will always be that its cancellation was a huge mistake. Why is it that the aircraft industry has been consistently destroyed by politicians who wouldn't know one end an aeroplane from the other!
I understood that Mountbatten told the Australians they could have 5 Buccaneers for 1 TSR2. The Aussies never had any interest in the Buccaneer, but decidided that if even Mountbatten was against TSR2 it was obviousy going to be cancelled so they had better order F111's.
The reason the government wanted to cancel TSR2 may have been pressure from the USA who wanted to export F111's and rightly regarded the TSR2 as serious competition.
The reason the government wanted to cancel TSR2 may have been pressure from the USA who wanted to export F111's and rightly regarded the TSR2 as serious competition.
That was indeed one of Mountbottom's typically inane views..
Servicing 5 a/c instead of one, training and paying 10 aircrew instead of 2.....and the Buccaneer had nothing like the potential of the TSR2.
But it made sense to Mountbottom - somehow. Never was one to be confused by facts when he had his own made-up opinions.
Servicing 5 a/c instead of one, training and paying 10 aircrew instead of 2.....and the Buccaneer had nothing like the potential of the TSR2.
But it made sense to Mountbottom - somehow. Never was one to be confused by facts when he had his own made-up opinions.
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I thought Healey wanted US support for his application to the IMF for a loan. The Yanks said "no probs, Dennis, you can rely on Uncle Sam to support you. Just bury that promising damned aeroplane so we can sell some F1-11s".
Allegedly, of course
SSD
Allegedly, of course
SSD
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SSD, the application to the IMF for a loan (1976) was 11 years after the cancellation of the TSR-2, and thus the two events were in no way connected. The only common factor was Denis Healey himself (first MInister of Defence, then Chancellor of the Exchequer).
Archimedes,
A long departed dear friend who was deeply involved at the time always claimed that there had been an Air Staff decision to call TSR2 the Claymore S1 in RAF service.
Conspiracy theories abound but at the end of the day it was way over budget, the RAF could barely afford 50 of the things, no-one else was going to buy it, the economy and the currency were in a right old mess, and at the time of the cancelation it didn't actually work!
It would have worked, they would have sorted the engine, vibration and undercarriage issues, and it could have gone into service.
But would that have been a good thing? If we had 50 Claymores we would have had no Phantom FGR2's, MRCA would probably not have happened and the UK industry would have taken the same hit anyway, just a year or two later.
It was a classic low under the radar nuclear strike aircraft that would have been entering service just as NATO was abandoning the nuclear tripwire and going over to measured response and a period of conventional warfare. Would it have been as good at that as Tornado? I don't know but I doubt it.
A long departed dear friend who was deeply involved at the time always claimed that there had been an Air Staff decision to call TSR2 the Claymore S1 in RAF service.
Conspiracy theories abound but at the end of the day it was way over budget, the RAF could barely afford 50 of the things, no-one else was going to buy it, the economy and the currency were in a right old mess, and at the time of the cancelation it didn't actually work!
It would have worked, they would have sorted the engine, vibration and undercarriage issues, and it could have gone into service.
But would that have been a good thing? If we had 50 Claymores we would have had no Phantom FGR2's, MRCA would probably not have happened and the UK industry would have taken the same hit anyway, just a year or two later.
It was a classic low under the radar nuclear strike aircraft that would have been entering service just as NATO was abandoning the nuclear tripwire and going over to measured response and a period of conventional warfare. Would it have been as good at that as Tornado? I don't know but I doubt it.
Pr00ne,
Thank you. Now I've got a possible clue, I'll see what happens to be lying about the archives (assuming no weeding, flood damage, retained for xx years, etc, etc).
'Claymore' would fit in with the documents on the F-111 , since there were references in the early stages of the intended procurement of that aircraft to the possible use of 'Rapier' but this was rejected as it had been 'reserved' for a missile system (I wonder which that could have been
?) . What didn't make sense to me at the time of looking at that was the appearance of that name in amongst birds of prey (and 27 Aboriginal names). Evidently, their airships moved from weapons to birds of prey for the proposed name for the F-111.
At least they didn't try to call the thing the Harrogate B.1 (which was the fate that could've befallen the F-111!)
Thank you. Now I've got a possible clue, I'll see what happens to be lying about the archives (assuming no weeding, flood damage, retained for xx years, etc, etc).
'Claymore' would fit in with the documents on the F-111 , since there were references in the early stages of the intended procurement of that aircraft to the possible use of 'Rapier' but this was rejected as it had been 'reserved' for a missile system (I wonder which that could have been
?) . What didn't make sense to me at the time of looking at that was the appearance of that name in amongst birds of prey (and 27 Aboriginal names). Evidently, their airships moved from weapons to birds of prey for the proposed name for the F-111.At least they didn't try to call the thing the Harrogate B.1 (which was the fate that could've befallen the F-111!)
I was lucky enough to clamber all over a TSR2 at Boscombe Down as an air cadet in the 60's. One lasting image is of the mock coat of arms pencilled on the side, bearing the motto "Harold Wilson's Folly".....
Gentleman Aviator
But there WAS an IMF or some sort of "be-nice-to the-cousins-and-we'll-get-some-cash" connection.
I remember 2 things from school VIth form years - which were 64-65 and 65-66.
English master with no military experience who loved the "romantic" shape and sight of TSR-2, coming into a poetry class with a "Hurrumph! Shelley would never have cancelled TSR-2!!"
Discussing in economics class possibility of shady deal with Spams to cut some loan deal - Callaghan was Chancellor I think.
Can't be precise on dates, but certainly within those 2 academic years.....
I remember 2 things from school VIth form years - which were 64-65 and 65-66.
English master with no military experience who loved the "romantic" shape and sight of TSR-2, coming into a poetry class with a "Hurrumph! Shelley would never have cancelled TSR-2!!"
Discussing in economics class possibility of shady deal with Spams to cut some loan deal - Callaghan was Chancellor I think.
Can't be precise on dates, but certainly within those 2 academic years.....
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Anyone read Boscombe ETP Mike Crossleys book "Up in Harms Way" ?
He was not too dewy eyed about the demise of the TSR2 in his book
But maybe it is nice to continue to speculate about how good an aircraft it might have been,, had it been given half a chance...
Wunper
He was not too dewy eyed about the demise of the TSR2 in his book
But maybe it is nice to continue to speculate about how good an aircraft it might have been,, had it been given half a chance...
Wunper
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TSR-2
Hi all,
Would anyone have any 'period' photographs of the TSR2 during any of its flight testing that they could email to me (for my own personal use), higher resolution the better
All the best
Neil
Would anyone have any 'period' photographs of the TSR2 during any of its flight testing that they could email to me (for my own personal use), higher resolution the better
All the best
Neil
Plastic PPRuNer
Peut's TSR-2 photo page
