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10 Sqn Halifax

Old 20th Jun 2019, 15:12
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10 Sqn Halifax

This photo was taken around May/ June 1943 at RAF Melbourne of a 10 Sqn Halifax. My Dad, Ron Carpenter, is back row far right. Not sure of the names of the rest of the aircrew but Dad flew most of his ops with S/L Debenham who was the pilot. I know it's a long shot but does anyone recognise other crew members or ground crew.

10 Sqn RAF Melbourne
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:52
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Have you asked the 10 squadron association? There are still a few members who might know them.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 06:30
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Thanks. I'll try
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 08:20
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No luck with any names on the photo. I have a photo of Dad which looks like a course photo but didn't know where and when. Dad front row far right. I posted it on the '10 Sqn Halifax and Whitley' Facebook page and a member posted the photo with the details on it. Taken at Chipping Warden 12 OTU around May 1942. Course 28 for B/A, A/G and W/Ops for crewing in before 1st op. A member of the Midland Aircraft Recovery Group sent me the details of the men on Course 28. Really pleased.


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Old 12th Jun 2020, 15:32
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'Melbourne Ten' by Brian J Rapier , published by Air Museum Publications (York) Ltd in 1982 , ISBN 0-9507326-1-3 and rare as hens teeth to put it politely !

Chapter 5 : Hamburg and the Hundred Ops , page 47 has a photo of S/L Debenham and his air and ground crews captioned 'with the much censored X-Ray' . There is a photograph of Halifax BB324/ZA-X on page 49 and in the text it states 'Sergeant Pinkerton flying ZA-X-Ray , BB324 , failed to return from Mulheim , one aircraft cancelled at take off and two returned early from this , a 20 aircraft raid . Squadron Leader Debenham often flew this aircraft and is in the left hand seat of this photogrpaph of BB324 flying on 'one' .'

There may well be other references to S/L Debenham too elsewhere in the book ? I also found that Debenham was awarded the DFC ; Debenham . Archibald Ian Scott . SL . (70167) . RAFVR . 10 Sqn : London Gazette ; 12 November 1943 : 4972 .
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 20:03
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ZA-X BB324

Dad was sitting next to S/L Debenham when 'Flying on one'. BB324 was on an air test on 1 June 1943. I have some original photos of the air test. In the photo 'X ray blacked out Dad is second from right' I have been in touch with Sgt Pinkerton's nephew who FTR from Mulheim on 22/23 June 1943 in BB324. Dad was the bomb aimer in BB324 the previous evening then his crew were stood down after returning from Krefeld. I have Dad's log book.




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Old 17th Jun 2020, 05:40
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Wow! Those are really great photographs, particularly the first big one. I would not have thought that they would have encouraged pilots to fly around on one engine in those days, or any days! And it is one of the early ones with Merlins and the small fins.

David D
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Old 17th Jun 2020, 07:08
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Photos

Here's some more. Dad at the bomb aimers position and last in the queue boarding a Halifax of 10 Sqn.






Last edited by davidcarp; 17th Jun 2020 at 07:33.
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Old 7th Nov 2020, 22:32
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I was wondering if you have any more photos please as I am looking for info about my great uncle, Sgt Derick Soggee. I have hardly any photos of him or either of two planes I know he flew in (ZA-A and ZA-C). Any info or even better photos most appreciated. Died 30th November 1942 in ZA-C.
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 12:16
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Originally Posted by jm123 View Post
I was wondering if you have any more photos please as I am looking for info about my great uncle, Sgt Derick Soggee. I have hardly any photos of him or either of two planes I know he flew in (ZA-A and ZA-C). Any info or even better photos most appreciated. Died 30th November 1942 in ZA-C.

Unfortunately I haven't any photos but some information on your great uncle. Sgt D Soggee's last operation was on the 20 Nov 1942 in W7671 'C'. On 30 Nov there were no operations but formation exercises and Sgt Soggee was killed with the rest of his crew when their aircraft crashed just after take off.

Regards

David Carpenter





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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 12:28
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I understand the early Halifax had directional control problems. At high angles of attack, and with side slip, the whole fin could stall resulting in a rudder hard-over from which it was impossible to recover. Do any readers know more about this problem?

It was cured eventually by fitting square fins and rudders.
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 15:06
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The effect was known as 'rudder reversal', but not necessarily associated with a fin stall.

Look at the hinge line of the rudders on the fin; in extremis it was possible to put in a 'bootful' of pedal which would move the rudder to full deflection. This would then put more airflow on to the forward part of the rudder assembly (ie forward of the hinge line), and effectively 'lock' it in place as the aerodynamic forces were greater than the foot force the pilot could apply through the pedals. This led to an almost instantaneous spiral dive with increasing speed requiring even more pedal force............... This was actually a potential problem with all twin tail heavies hence the redesign of the Halifax tail and the early Manchester/ Lancaster. However rudder design did a lot to mitigate said problem- on the Shack MOTU we were told about it but then told we could ignore it as it wouldn't happen to us (mind you we were told a lot of things couldn't happen to the aircraft which did!).
Of note a relative of my father was killed when his Halifax spiraled in with suspected rudder reversal whilst carrying out radar trials from Defford. Unfortunately there were also a number of radar boffins on board as well.
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Old 3rd Jan 2021, 00:20
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Interestingly three of the crew from W7671 which crashed near Laytham Grange at the edge of the airfield , Brewer , Soggee and Willmott , had all survived another 10 Squadron Halifax mishap in the September when R9383 had got lost returning from Ops on Saarbrucken and the crew abandoned the aircraft whilst over the Yorkshire Dales but sadly the navigator Sgt Hugh McDougall was killed when his parachute failed to open .
Derick Soggee is buried in Barmby Moor Churchyard near the former Pocklington airfield and a photograph of him in India did exist at the following website but now appears to have disappeared although the caption states ; Link here ; Photographs of India : Jill Grey's Collection of Photographs of India . Hopefully someone can recover the image ?
Good luck with your research .
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Old 3rd Jan 2021, 00:26
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Derick Soggee in India ;

Derick Soggee in India , rear row - third from left .
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Old 3rd Jan 2021, 10:52
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I only noticed the interesting photo's of the Halifax single engine testflight today. Intriguing! I would think that with 3 engines out, you would need some aileron and rudder input to keep a straight track. But looking at the photo's, I can't see any aileron nor rudder deflection. Any thoughts on that?
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 13:03
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Stunning photos!

As you say Washout, surprisingly little or no Rudder/Aileron in an assymetric condition.

Only suggestion I can come up with for that is; maybe nos 1 (and 2 if running) were at very low power and the aeroplane descending at a relatively high airspeed, i.e. loads of airflow giving effective controls hence little input required and little or no thrust, minimising yaw.

I imagine the photo was staged, but there are recorded instances of uncommanded featherings of Merlins (albeit on Lancasters) happening. One to an ATA pilot (Jeffrey Wikner) but Centaurus, who posts regularly on PPRuNe wrote about such an incident he experienced of it happening on a Lincoln - also Merlin powered.

Still, bet they were happier when they were started up again!

BSD.


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Old 4th Jan 2021, 13:22
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I've always understood that the rudder issue, only became an issue on a 3 engine stall, when it went into an uncontrollable spin.
I remember reading about it years ago somewhere.
So in these pics, providing the aircraft is above the stall, it isn't an issue.
I have never flown a 4 engine piston, but on a light twin, plenty of rudder was needed to keep it straight and level with one engine out.

Last edited by rolling20; 4th Jan 2021 at 13:37.
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 13:28
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Originally Posted by BSD View Post
Stunning photos!

As you say Washout, surprisingly little or no Rudder/Aileron in an assymetric condition.

Only suggestion I can come up with for that is; maybe nos 1 (and 2 if running) were at very low power and the aeroplane descending at a relatively high airspeed, i.e. loads of airflow giving effective controls hence little input required and little or no thrust, minimising yaw.

I imagine the photo was staged, but there are recorded instances of uncommanded featherings of Merlins (albeit on Lancasters) happening. One to an ATA pilot (Jeffrey Wikner) but Centaurus, who posts regularly on PPRuNe wrote about such an incident he experienced of it happening on a Lincoln - also Merlin powered.

Still, bet they were happier when they were started up again!

BSD.
I believe Guy Gibson had the same issue ,flying some bods from the air ministry on a Lanc demo flight.
They were flying on one, when his FE feathered that one as well, IIRC
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Old 4th Jan 2021, 15:45
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They were flying on one, when his FE feathered that one as well, IIRC
Sort of solves the rudder problem!!
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Old 5th Jan 2021, 09:38
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Thanks for the responses. Although my mechanical feeling says, that with asymmetric thrust and consequently aileron input, you cannot have zero rudder input, albeit small with high airspoeed.. But that would not be visible, I imagine.
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