Bombing Berlin
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I think the thing one has to remember, is that aside of night strategic bombing,what else could Bomber Command do? The doctrine that Bomber Command was following was one that was left over from WW1 and was then re affirmed in the 30s. Its idea of precision daylight bombing was over by December 39. The whole force was geared to a night offensive. Aside of calls from the navy and army looking to take aircraft for their own means, Battle of the Atlantic and Western Desert etc, the only thing it could do was bomb Germany. A whole industry employing tens of thousands of people was geared to bomber production, that could not easily be stopped without disrupting the war economy. Until Harris was appointed, BC was going no where.
Don't forget that in Harris's mind there was no reason for a second front as he was convinced that strategic bombing of German cities would render any invasion entirely unnecessary. He was a dogma driven obsessive, and that dogma was the destruction of German CITIES and TOWNS, not industry, not the military, but the steady destruction of cities and de-housing of the population, by death, injury or depriving them of homes.
He said of the about to start Battle of Berlin, "if the Americans will come in with me then we will wreck Berlin from end to end. It might cost me 100 bombers, it will cost Germany the war."
He was wrong, the Americans DID come in, it cost him over 500 bombers, and they failed to wreck Berlin from end to end and it did not cost Germany the war. Harris lost the Battle of Berlin.
He said of the about to start Battle of Berlin, "if the Americans will come in with me then we will wreck Berlin from end to end. It might cost me 100 bombers, it will cost Germany the war."
He was wrong, the Americans DID come in, it cost him over 500 bombers, and they failed to wreck Berlin from end to end and it did not cost Germany the war. Harris lost the Battle of Berlin.
He said of the about to start Battle of Berlin, "if the Americans will come in with me then we will wreck Berlin from end to end. It might cost me 100 bombers, it will cost Germany the war."
He was wrong, the Americans DID come in, it cost him over 500 bombers, and they failed to wreck Berlin from end to end and it did not cost Germany the war. Harris lost the Battle of Berlin.
He was wrong, the Americans DID come in, it cost him over 500 bombers, and they failed to wreck Berlin from end to end and it did not cost Germany the war. Harris lost the Battle of Berlin.
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I think the thing one has to remember, is that aside of night strategic bombing,what else could Bomber Command do? The doctrine that Bomber Command was following was one that was left over from WW1 and was then re affirmed in the 30s. Its idea of precision daylight bombing was over by December 39. The whole force was geared to a night offensive. Aside of calls from the navy and army looking to take aircraft for their own means, Battle of the Atlantic and Western Desert etc, the only thing it could do was bomb Germany. A whole industry employing tens of thousands of people was geared to bomber production, that could not easily be stopped without disrupting the war economy. Until Harris was appointed, BC was going no where.
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I think the thing one has to remember, is that aside of night strategic bombing,what else could Bomber Command do? The doctrine that Bomber Command was following was one that was left over from WW1 and was then re affirmed in the 30s. Its idea of precision daylight bombing was over by December 39. The whole force was geared to a night offensive. Aside of calls from the navy and army looking to take aircraft for their own means, Battle of the Atlantic and Western Desert etc, the only thing it could do was bomb Germany. A whole industry employing tens of thousands of people was geared to bomber production, that could not easily be stopped without disrupting the war economy. Until Harris was appointed, BC was going no where.
I think prevention was better than cure, ie bombing U boat yards where the boats were being built. The Augsburg raid of April 42 was the longest low level daylight raid of the war. The aim was the destruction of the Man diesel works,producing U boat engines. Failure of many bombs to detonate did not bring about the required result and a 58% loss rate was unacceptable. U boats continued to be launched. This still showed that precision bombing was a dangerous task for Bomber Command and may or may not have fixed Harris’s view for the rest of the war, Chastise excepted. As for diverting resources to the Battle of the Atlantic, it wasn’t until the arrival of very long range Liberators in mid 43 that the battle turned in the allies favour. These aircraft plugged the Atlantic gap, something Bomber Command aircraft could not do. Also by the late summer of 43, a number of squadrons and aircrew returned from the Western Desert to join Bomber Command, their tactical job done.
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I'm no expert, but the Lincoln/Shackelton development suggests that something might have been done with very long range Lancasters, given the will.
Meanwhile back at the original topic.
After listening to the broadcast I was curious about the recording technology used. Magnetic recording was still in its infancy in 1943 and cutting directly to wax disc was still the most usual method. Not, as you may expect, the most convenient technology for use in WWII bomber on a mission. I came across this interesting bit in an article about Vaughan Thomas's sound engineer on the mission, Reg Pidsley.
This is the website if anyone is interested...
Reporting War 1944/5 - Introduction
After listening to the broadcast I was curious about the recording technology used. Magnetic recording was still in its infancy in 1943 and cutting directly to wax disc was still the most usual method. Not, as you may expect, the most convenient technology for use in WWII bomber on a mission. I came across this interesting bit in an article about Vaughan Thomas's sound engineer on the mission, Reg Pidsley.
...it was on one of the '1000 bomber raids' over Germany with Wynford Vaughan Thomas as War Correspondent that he had first to put the uncut disc inside his flying jacket to warm it up before recording WVT's report on his portable recorder. The temperature inside the bombers flying at their operational height was very low rendering the disc's coating too brittle to cut.
"In the middle of the recording a massive bomb was released from the aircraft in which they were working and the aircraft rose, as mentioned above, 'like a lift' with the result that the stylus dug a deep hole into the disc! ... silver paint, which looked like aluminium paint (or perhaps it was a special compound developed for the industry), was [used for] repair which Reg had effected to allow the piece to be broadcast.
"In the middle of the recording a massive bomb was released from the aircraft in which they were working and the aircraft rose, as mentioned above, 'like a lift' with the result that the stylus dug a deep hole into the disc! ... silver paint, which looked like aluminium paint (or perhaps it was a special compound developed for the industry), was [used for] repair which Reg had effected to allow the piece to be broadcast.
Reporting War 1944/5 - Introduction
There are plenty of reasons why it was never done. I guess the easiest is that Bomber Command were not going to be diverted from their aim of bombing Germany. Any aircraft that needed modification and testing would have diverted Avros away from the building of Lancasters and BC would have been vociferous in their opposition. The Lincoln came about from a specification for a bomber for the war against Japan.
It was planned to use the Lancaster in the Pacific. Following courtesy of William Green's "Famous Bombers of WWII"
With the final defeat of Germany, the Lancaster was prepared for a new task, the assault on Japan in the Pacific theatre. Special modifications were required to render the Lancaster suitable for Far East operations, the modified aircraft being designated Lancaster- I (F.E.), and distinguishable externally by a new finish comprising white upper surfaces and black undersides. Some Lancaster VIIs were also detailed for “Tiger Force”, as the R.A.F.’s strategic bomber force in the Pacific was to be known, but in the event, Japan surrendered before this force joined operations.
One of the problems of using Lancasters in the Far East was that of sufficient range to enable the aircraft to be ferried out from this country and operated in the area subsequently, One early solution aimed at increasing the range of the Lancaster was the provision of a 1,200 Imp. gal. “ saddle” tank along the top of the fuselage, aft of the cockpit. Two aircraft (SW244 and HK541) were converted by A.V.Roe to take this tank, but their take-off performances proved to be so poor when the tank was fully loaded, and handling characteristics left so much to be desired that alternative methods of obtaining the required range were investigated, including in-flight ref uelling. The latter solution was eventually adopted, and it was proposed to operate substantial numbers of Lancasters from Burmese bases, refuelling them by converted tanker aircraft enroute to targets in the Japanese homeland. A great deal of the in-flight refuelling equipment had been manufactured, and some Lancasters had been converted for trailing-line-type refuelling when the Japanese war ended and further development was abandoned.
One of the problems of using Lancasters in the Far East was that of sufficient range to enable the aircraft to be ferried out from this country and operated in the area subsequently, One early solution aimed at increasing the range of the Lancaster was the provision of a 1,200 Imp. gal. “ saddle” tank along the top of the fuselage, aft of the cockpit. Two aircraft (SW244 and HK541) were converted by A.V.Roe to take this tank, but their take-off performances proved to be so poor when the tank was fully loaded, and handling characteristics left so much to be desired that alternative methods of obtaining the required range were investigated, including in-flight ref uelling. The latter solution was eventually adopted, and it was proposed to operate substantial numbers of Lancasters from Burmese bases, refuelling them by converted tanker aircraft enroute to targets in the Japanese homeland. A great deal of the in-flight refuelling equipment had been manufactured, and some Lancasters had been converted for trailing-line-type refuelling when the Japanese war ended and further development was abandoned.
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That is exactly what some people saw, and see, as the problem with Harris: he was entirely committed to having Bomber Command bomb Germany, whilst the rest of the Allied forces were trying to win the war as quickly and economically as possible, which turned out not to be the way the theorists of strategic bombing believed.
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blind pew,
Anyone concerned about the raid needs to look at it in the context of the time, and the military situation, it was NOT a war crime, just an extremely effective area bombing raid on a largely undefended city. Those defending it as a "precision raid" need only look at the target maps, all the undamaged built up areas but not the industry in the city.
Anyone concerned about the raid needs to look at it in the context of the time, and the military situation, it was NOT a war crime, just an extremely effective area bombing raid on a largely undefended city. Those defending it as a "precision raid" need only look at the target maps, all the undamaged built up areas but not the industry in the city.
This is in no way meant to belittle the RAFs contribution to the victory over Nazi Germany and the guts and dedication those missions required. Over 70 years later it is not too early, however, to discern between individual crews' performance (valour, etc.) and the justifiability of individual raids.
What is most troubling and disrespectful of the legacy and achievements of those who fought Nazi Germany, however, is the renewed rise of xenophobia as a political instrument.
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People didn't know this in 1939. Harris didn't start the area bombing campaign, but he did persist in it, with a hostility towards alternative strategies that was remarkably fierce, and suggests that he was very concerned indeed with the independent role of Bomber Command. He saw it as a question of what Bomber Command could do, not what the Allied forces as a whole could do. He was always promising total destruction of German fighting power with just a bit more effort, a bit more priority given to Bomber Command. The criticism of Harris is that he persisted in a strategy that was proving not to be as successful as anticipated, that he did so in an insubordinate manner, and caused diversion of effort from activities like ASW and tactical air power, which would contribute more directly to success and which were, coincidentally, more in line with conventional notions of the ethics of warfare.
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My late father who was in Bomber Command, and indeed was shot down over Germany in 1943 commented to me on the difficulties of finding your target over blacked out Europe, and indeed my Godfather (shot down early 1944 a Pathfinder Navigator) commented to me during the same conversation, that one of the reasons they were able to bomb Berlin was because the Germans built the city so big in the first place ! Both said never compare modern flying (this was a circa 1990 conversation) with crawling around the night skies of Germany on a dark winters night with a lot of dedicated people trying to kill,you because you were going to drop bombs on their friends and family. Indeed they both said perhaps in that regard the Night Fighter crews and Flak had the clearest conscience of any of the Nazi armed forces in that respect.
Regards
Mr Mac
Regards
Mr Mac
Oh its about world war 2. i thought it was the headlines in mail on Sunday as Boris Johnsons latesty idea on leaving the EU.
Oddly enough though what would happen if the Eu took a US Civil War approach to the issue and said actually little UK we are much bigger than you, much greater population so we are not going to let you leave but take you over?
i suppose we have reasonable armed forces but then so do France and Germany and all the other smaller countries have reasonably modern forces . More to the point Russia and America would be neutral or on the other side this time and the Commonwealth ( nee Empire wouldn't give a monkeys )
We have nukes but so do the French and theirs don't need permission from the Yanks to use them.
We could be very hungry PDQ and its still pretty cold in march so no heating or electricity might be an issue for us
We don't have the last line of defence in the form of the Warmington on Sea Home Guard platoon anymore
We only have about 8 Spitfires and even fewer Hurricanes.
We are more like the bad guys this time
Oddly enough though what would happen if the Eu took a US Civil War approach to the issue and said actually little UK we are much bigger than you, much greater population so we are not going to let you leave but take you over?
i suppose we have reasonable armed forces but then so do France and Germany and all the other smaller countries have reasonably modern forces . More to the point Russia and America would be neutral or on the other side this time and the Commonwealth ( nee Empire wouldn't give a monkeys )
We have nukes but so do the French and theirs don't need permission from the Yanks to use them.
We could be very hungry PDQ and its still pretty cold in march so no heating or electricity might be an issue for us
We don't have the last line of defence in the form of the Warmington on Sea Home Guard platoon anymore
We only have about 8 Spitfires and even fewer Hurricanes.
We are more like the bad guys this time
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The even more dangerous daytime raids did more harm to the nazi industry railway lines and capabilities. Nighttime raids had to be unprecise so hitting housing areas and creating area fires was the main effect to be gained. The german fighter defense was pretty poor, the flak was the real danger to the bomber streams.
When in Berlin visit the British war cemetery at Heerstraße. Pretty sad to see all those graves of 19 year olds even when they had bombed my hometown - but for a valid reason.
When in Berlin visit the British war cemetery at Heerstraße. Pretty sad to see all those graves of 19 year olds even when they had bombed my hometown - but for a valid reason.
Last edited by Kerosene Kraut; 6th Aug 2018 at 14:36.
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Oh its about world war 2. i thought it was the headlines in mail on Sunday as Boris Johnsons latesty idea on leaving the EU.
Oddly enough though what would happen if the Eu took a US Civil War approach to the issue and said actually little UK we are much bigger than you, much greater population so we are not going to let you leave but take you over?
i suppose we have reasonable armed forces but then so do France and Germany and all the other smaller countries have reasonably modern forces . More to the point Russia and America would be neutral or on the other side this time and the Commonwealth ( nee Empire wouldn't give a monkeys )
We have nukes but so do the French and theirs don't need permission from the Yanks to use them.
We could be very hungry PDQ and its still pretty cold in march so no heating or electricity might be an issue for us
We don't have the last line of defence in the form of the Warmington on Sea Home Guard platoon anymore
We only have about 8 Spitfires and even fewer Hurricanes.
We are more like the bad guys this time
Oddly enough though what would happen if the Eu took a US Civil War approach to the issue and said actually little UK we are much bigger than you, much greater population so we are not going to let you leave but take you over?
i suppose we have reasonable armed forces but then so do France and Germany and all the other smaller countries have reasonably modern forces . More to the point Russia and America would be neutral or on the other side this time and the Commonwealth ( nee Empire wouldn't give a monkeys )
We have nukes but so do the French and theirs don't need permission from the Yanks to use them.
We could be very hungry PDQ and its still pretty cold in march so no heating or electricity might be an issue for us
We don't have the last line of defence in the form of the Warmington on Sea Home Guard platoon anymore
We only have about 8 Spitfires and even fewer Hurricanes.
We are more like the bad guys this time
My main worry is that I'm pretty sure we don't have an R E Lee or a T J Jackson on our side.........
