RR Dart Historians: A Request
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RR Dart Historians: A Request
Long ago I noticed that the Wikipedia entry on the Rolls Royce Dart was very thin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Dart. It still is. As this was such an important engine in the first generation of turboprops, could I ask if people who know about it could fill out its entry a bit? Please? And, of course, pretty please.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: ON TOP OF OLD SMOKEY
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doing the F.27 ground school, years and years ago, one of the tricky bits was understanding the workings and function of 'The Third Oil Line' .
This was a part of the Rotol prop. So everyman and his dog who did
ground school for the Friendship or the Viscount would have encountered
this brain teaser.
The Dart was not affected by the ingestion of massive quantities of
water. This was confirmed following the loss of TAA Viscount VH-TVC
into Botany Bay shortly after take off from Mascot, (Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport), which aircraft went out of control flying into an intense
thunderstorm. The investigators had another Viscount, with one engine running at take-off power, subjected to the full force and volume of
an airport fire tender hose. Supposedly, so the story goes, there was
a small increase in engine RPM. No surprise really, as switching on the
water methanol before take- off achieved a thrust benefit.
This was a part of the Rotol prop. So everyman and his dog who did
ground school for the Friendship or the Viscount would have encountered
this brain teaser.
The Dart was not affected by the ingestion of massive quantities of
water. This was confirmed following the loss of TAA Viscount VH-TVC
into Botany Bay shortly after take off from Mascot, (Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport), which aircraft went out of control flying into an intense
thunderstorm. The investigators had another Viscount, with one engine running at take-off power, subjected to the full force and volume of
an airport fire tender hose. Supposedly, so the story goes, there was
a small increase in engine RPM. No surprise really, as switching on the
water methanol before take- off achieved a thrust benefit.
The investigators had another Viscount, with one engine running at take-off power, subjected to the full force and volume of
an airport fire tender hose.
an airport fire tender hose.
We suspected that Gnome engine rundowns on our Whirlwinds might be caused by ingesting rainwater so we tied one down with the filter removed and let the fire section try to put it out.
They succeeded, eventually, but we shut down the engine to ensure its survival more than anything else.
Ingesting water can indeed put the fire out, though could depend on engine and circumstances. Metro had a double failure in flight put down to flight in a torrential downpour, crashed. 737 had both fires go out in rain and made a safe undamaged dead stick landing. Fire fighters in Singapore had a hell of a time trying to shut down an engine of a 380 using water, eventually succeeded.
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Carlisle
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For a full history of the development of the Dart you may finding the following interesting.
"The Rolls Royce Dart - pioneering turboprop" by Roy Heathcote, published by the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust.
ISBN- 1-872922-03-1
"The Rolls Royce Dart - pioneering turboprop" by Roy Heathcote, published by the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust.
ISBN- 1-872922-03-1
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Incredibly robust engine. The Dart did everything you could ask of it. Rain, snow, ice? Pah! 6,000 hours F27 time, and never a concern about the engine. The gearbox was another matter. I had two of those fail, which of course is a shut-down (at least on the F27).
HEROD.
I presume you mean the "Accessory gearbox" was the cause of shut downs. I believe the F27 ones suffered low oil press quite a lot.
I worked on Viscounts and Heralds with a different Acc. gearbox.
I also recall problems with "Skid Failures" of bearings in the reduction gearbox caused by Zero Torque and the shaft moving back and forth in a roller bearing.
Hence the need to keep positive torque at all times.
I presume you mean the "Accessory gearbox" was the cause of shut downs. I believe the F27 ones suffered low oil press quite a lot.
I worked on Viscounts and Heralds with a different Acc. gearbox.
I also recall problems with "Skid Failures" of bearings in the reduction gearbox caused by Zero Torque and the shaft moving back and forth in a roller bearing.
Hence the need to keep positive torque at all times.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
dixi188. Exactly. I should have been more clear. Yes, the requirement for positive torque needed a little forward planning on the approach. No chance of a fast approach, close the throttles, flaps and gear on the speed, and land. Happy days though. Basic aircraft and basic engines.
There's a number of Viscount airframes in near airworthy condition, but the Darts seem pretty much timed out.
I have heard that lack of borescope access precludes inspection without major disassembly.
It's one thing to fly an old jet with one or two seats and quite another with a few dozen trusting folks in in the back.
The Vulcan and Concorde are in a similar situation after the manufacturer withdrew from supporting the Olympus.
I have heard that lack of borescope access precludes inspection without major disassembly.
It's one thing to fly an old jet with one or two seats and quite another with a few dozen trusting folks in in the back.
The Vulcan and Concorde are in a similar situation after the manufacturer withdrew from supporting the Olympus.
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Carlisle
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skid failure could also be caused by crew training air starts, the prop driving the engine rather than the engine driving the prop.
Failure of the universal drive in the auxiliary gearbox drive shaft also caused shutdowns, occasionally damaging the top combustion chamber and causing a fire warning.
Most unscheduled engine changes were caused by the prop hanging on the FFPS and power being applied.
Failure of the universal drive in the auxiliary gearbox drive shaft also caused shutdowns, occasionally damaging the top combustion chamber and causing a fire warning.
Most unscheduled engine changes were caused by the prop hanging on the FFPS and power being applied.
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Carlisle
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boroscope access was available through the two ignitor port positions for a general inspection, however it was simpler just to remove the cans for access, two hours to remove all seven combustion chambers for full access to nozzle guide vanes, same to refit followed by ground runs.
Engine shop in Africa still holds Dart overhaul approval.
Engine shop in Africa still holds Dart overhaul approval.
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are the shop with the RR Dart approval for the Dart, Fields Airmotive in Johannesburg
Our website has some photos etc of RR Darts in various stages of disassembly www.fieldsairmotive.com . We also do the heavy maintenance on aircraft the RR Dart is fitted to and also overhaul the applicable propellerCurrently got a G159 and a F27 in the hangar, Its a real flashback in time for some guys who pop by our place
Herod:
4500 hours, one failure (that accessory gear box as you said) and one fire.
My employer permitted a minimum of 60 psi torque OR zero psi to prevent the dreaded lay-shaft flutter.
And I'm still trying to figure out where RR hid that noise generator!
4500 hours, one failure (that accessory gear box as you said) and one fire.
Yes, the requirement for positive torque needed a little forward planning on the approach
And I'm still trying to figure out where RR hid that noise generator!
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During a take off at Edinburgh RAAF aerodrome in South Australia in a Viscount 832, we encountered hundreds of seagulls that were feeding on tiny worms on the flight strip. We were just about to rotate at the time when they flew across our path. Abandoned the take off roll after hitting lots of birds. Inspection showed no damage apart from blood stains yet 23 dead birds found on the runway. Precautionary run up of the four Darts revealed no apparent damage and we departed an hour later. I was sure some birds must have been chopped up by the props. The Dart was a hardy engine for sure.
FAR CU wrote
Yes the aircraft was owned and registered to TAA but was dry leased to and operated by Ansett-ANA at the time of the accident.
CC
the loss of TAA Viscount VH-TVC
into Botany Bay shortly after take off from Mascot,
into Botany Bay shortly after take off from Mascot,
CC
