Flight engineers
Herod,
I am inclined to agree with you.
I am inclined to agree with you.
Herod
Exactly my thoughts - after my time as a Herc' navigator I became an ATCO with CAA ( now NATS ) and most of my career was spent at London Centre and Heathrow. It was amazing how often the phrase ' cockpit/flight deck workload' was used to tell ATC to 'shut up' or in conversations with pilot mates over a beer.
My argument was why not use a third crew member who was not a pilot ? He/she would combine the former roles of signaller/nav/flight eng and have no aspirations of trying to replace either of the 2 drivers. They could have been taught a few basic flying drills to help out should either of the 2 drivers become incapacitated. More importantly they could have prevented the apparent wish to commit suicide by a pilot which I believe has happened on several occasions.
My argument was why not use a third crew member who was not a pilot ? He/she would combine the former roles of signaller/nav/flight eng and have no aspirations of trying to replace either of the 2 drivers. They could have been taught a few basic flying drills to help out should either of the 2 drivers become incapacitated. More importantly they could have prevented the apparent wish to commit suicide by a pilot which I believe has happened on several occasions.
As a young, new, Second Officer flying around Europe en route to the BOAC Worldwide destinations, I mentioned to the F/E that maybe I'd brush up my schoolboy German for Frankfurt slips, and perhaps learn Italian, or maybe Spanish, for the Rome and Barcelona slips ? Don't bother, lad, he replied, you only need one phrase in any language - "Two beers please, my friend will pay."
Sound advice, tho' I forget now what the Chinese version was.
Salt(s) of the Earth, I vowed that I'd never fly without a F/E ( after all, they were the only ones who ever really knew what made everything tick ) but now, as the owner of a single seat microlight - I are one !
Sound advice, tho' I forget now what the Chinese version was.
Salt(s) of the Earth, I vowed that I'd never fly without a F/E ( after all, they were the only ones who ever really knew what made everything tick ) but now, as the owner of a single seat microlight - I are one !
SkyGod
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
Many moons ago I flew for a company that used to fly Electras, way before my time, but I heard some stories.
One story was about this Electra F/E: They all sat just behind the pedestal and between the pilots. The rudder trim was also right about there.
The F/E used to pull out his penis and place it on the rudder trim wheel.
Every time one of the pilots reached back without looking, to crank in a bit of trim, they would get his penis in their hand instead.
They F/E thought this was hilarious of course, not sure if the pilots enjoyed it as much.
Good old days.
One story was about this Electra F/E: They all sat just behind the pedestal and between the pilots. The rudder trim was also right about there.
The F/E used to pull out his penis and place it on the rudder trim wheel.
Every time one of the pilots reached back without looking, to crank in a bit of trim, they would get his penis in their hand instead.
They F/E thought this was hilarious of course, not sure if the pilots enjoyed it as much.
Good old days.
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,373
Received 119 Likes
on
86 Posts
" Well known M.E operator" and their B720's sometime in the 80's.
Arrives on stand with the good old JT3 T/R stuck open problem. F/E grins and waves down to me attached to the headset...then slams the engine in a ( vain ) attempt to get offending T/R to reset. Alas.
Finally get onto flight deck and greeted by said F/E ( whom I had met many times and got to know well ) offer my "sentiments" as to his efforts when outside, big grin from F/E and then ask if he has the well known JT3 rectification kit in the hold, which they do. Point out a third body would be useful ...cough.
CRM ( F/E version ) ....leans over to F/O, now quietly trying to hide under the rudder pedals, and "helps" him out of the seat to assist us with the sledge hammer / large piece of wood rectification. T/R stowed thereafter.
Back on board, would I like a coffee?...never known to refuse, so he asks CC member ( male ) for two coffee's please. Gets a "nice" reply about "mother (rude word) engineers" and what we can do with ourselves. Alas, again. F/E was, as they say, a big lad, CC member not so.
F/E hoists CC member off the cabin floor and asks if I would like to eat as well ?......it would have been churlish to refuse of course, thus one was suitably refreshed before we put the world to rights, came to a mutual understanding as to the fuel, ahem, discrepancy figure ( Capt was starting to mutter ) F/E stops the muttering and log is duly signed.
Only ever met one bad one, belonging to a " well known now defunct LHR based operation" who was actually fawning over the four ringed ego and offering him sandwiches from the crew meal platter.
Arrives on stand with the good old JT3 T/R stuck open problem. F/E grins and waves down to me attached to the headset...then slams the engine in a ( vain ) attempt to get offending T/R to reset. Alas.
Finally get onto flight deck and greeted by said F/E ( whom I had met many times and got to know well ) offer my "sentiments" as to his efforts when outside, big grin from F/E and then ask if he has the well known JT3 rectification kit in the hold, which they do. Point out a third body would be useful ...cough.
CRM ( F/E version ) ....leans over to F/O, now quietly trying to hide under the rudder pedals, and "helps" him out of the seat to assist us with the sledge hammer / large piece of wood rectification. T/R stowed thereafter.
Back on board, would I like a coffee?...never known to refuse, so he asks CC member ( male ) for two coffee's please. Gets a "nice" reply about "mother (rude word) engineers" and what we can do with ourselves. Alas, again. F/E was, as they say, a big lad, CC member not so.
F/E hoists CC member off the cabin floor and asks if I would like to eat as well ?......it would have been churlish to refuse of course, thus one was suitably refreshed before we put the world to rights, came to a mutual understanding as to the fuel, ahem, discrepancy figure ( Capt was starting to mutter ) F/E stops the muttering and log is duly signed.
Only ever met one bad one, belonging to a " well known now defunct LHR based operation" who was actually fawning over the four ringed ego and offering him sandwiches from the crew meal platter.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Herod - the problem with that argument is that you can never have enough people in the cockpit .... if 3 are better than two then 4 must be better etc etc
Lets face it - air travel is unbelievably safer than now than it was in the days of FE's in every cockpit - that's not an arguement to say that removing FE's made things safer of course - it shows that Aircarft, ATC, systems, engines have all improved amazingly. There just is no good reason for an FE these days on commercial aircarft
Lets face it - air travel is unbelievably safer than now than it was in the days of FE's in every cockpit - that's not an arguement to say that removing FE's made things safer of course - it shows that Aircarft, ATC, systems, engines have all improved amazingly. There just is no good reason for an FE these days on commercial aircarft
Greetings Murg ! Flight Engineers - Couldn’t have done it without ‘em.
Dr Jekyll asked where they came from …. Apart from all the many varied sources mentioned above -
Three singularly unique origins, to my personal knowledge -
A Belvedere Aircrewman who wangled a full VC10 Flight Engineer course as his EVT leaving present.
A Huey door-gunner with the Rhodesian Air Force who did his entire Flight Engineer course on the ‘smuggled’ 720s because there were no sims or other ground training facilities available.
Started his RAF National Service at 18 as something very ordinary but when they found out he’d done a bit of engineering they made him a Neptune Flight Engineer. He didn’t say if he got a course, probably just handed him the Pilots Notes.
Many of the ones I knew, owned and flew light aeroplanes – very well indeed.
LFH
..................
Dr Jekyll asked where they came from …. Apart from all the many varied sources mentioned above -
Three singularly unique origins, to my personal knowledge -
A Belvedere Aircrewman who wangled a full VC10 Flight Engineer course as his EVT leaving present.
A Huey door-gunner with the Rhodesian Air Force who did his entire Flight Engineer course on the ‘smuggled’ 720s because there were no sims or other ground training facilities available.
Started his RAF National Service at 18 as something very ordinary but when they found out he’d done a bit of engineering they made him a Neptune Flight Engineer. He didn’t say if he got a course, probably just handed him the Pilots Notes.
Many of the ones I knew, owned and flew light aeroplanes – very well indeed.
LFH
..................
Buttonpusher
http://https://youtu.be/_4TRSYhrEJE
Sat sideways for 7 years on the DC-10 and 727, lots of laughs and good times.
Sat sideways for 7 years on the DC-10 and 727, lots of laughs and good times.
On the topic of flight engineers, there is a website I can highly recommend. It contains an absolute mine of information about a career as a flight engineer, including a virtual book written by a former flight engineer uploaded to the site in the form of 9 huge PDF documents covering what would be nine substantial chapters if it was ever to be published in print form.
The website is called “AIR NEW ZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS” and you can access it at....
http://flight-engineers-air-nz.********.co.nz/
In the pages index, scroll down to “A DIRECT LINK TO GARY SOMMERVILLE'S ARTICLES” and click on the link. The nine PDF documents cover Gary's early career as a licensed aircraft engineer, obtaining a job with TEAL (Tasman Empire Airways Ltd.), becoming a flight engineer on Lockheed L.188 Electras, then his time as a flight engineer on DC-8-52, DC-10-30 and Boeing 747-219 jetliners with Air New Zealand (formerly TEAL).
However, be advised that the site appears to have limited bandwidth per month, so if you all try and download those PDF documents (all nine of them) at the same time, you will run into a wall. It's a case of first in, first served, but if you cannot get access to them now due to a rush, you need patience and you will eventually manage to download the documents, which are lavishly illustrated.
The website is called “AIR NEW ZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS” and you can access it at....
http://flight-engineers-air-nz.********.co.nz/
In the pages index, scroll down to “A DIRECT LINK TO GARY SOMMERVILLE'S ARTICLES” and click on the link. The nine PDF documents cover Gary's early career as a licensed aircraft engineer, obtaining a job with TEAL (Tasman Empire Airways Ltd.), becoming a flight engineer on Lockheed L.188 Electras, then his time as a flight engineer on DC-8-52, DC-10-30 and Boeing 747-219 jetliners with Air New Zealand (formerly TEAL).
However, be advised that the site appears to have limited bandwidth per month, so if you all try and download those PDF documents (all nine of them) at the same time, you will run into a wall. It's a case of first in, first served, but if you cannot get access to them now due to a rush, you need patience and you will eventually manage to download the documents, which are lavishly illustrated.
Last edited by Kiwithrottlejockey; 12th Nov 2017 at 21:35.
Grrrrrrrr.....for some reason the link to the website refuses to post correctly at this group.
To input it manually, type the following into your address-bar:
http semicolon forward-slash forward-slash flight-engineers-air-nz dot b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t dot co dot nz
Hopefully you will be able to access it that way. For some reason this group refuses to post the b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t bit of the url.
Make sure you don't input the underscores between the letters. That was the only way I was able to even get this group to post the word. I don't know why that particular word appears to be banned at this group.
To input it manually, type the following into your address-bar:
http semicolon forward-slash forward-slash flight-engineers-air-nz dot b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t dot co dot nz
Hopefully you will be able to access it that way. For some reason this group refuses to post the b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t bit of the url.
Make sure you don't input the underscores between the letters. That was the only way I was able to even get this group to post the word. I don't know why that particular word appears to be banned at this group.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kerikeri New Zealand
Age: 89
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I joined TEAL as a Flight Engineer and flew for 6 years as such, and made it to F/O.
In my opinion the biggest mistake the heavy jet operator made was to get rid of the FE/O.
One engine saved from destruction is worth more than an FE/O lifetime earnings.
and the safety of a third set of eyes on the environment is beyond a cost approach.
One day the industry might learn from its mistakes and re-introduce the FE/O.
GLG Richardson ([email protected])
In my opinion the biggest mistake the heavy jet operator made was to get rid of the FE/O.
One engine saved from destruction is worth more than an FE/O lifetime earnings.
and the safety of a third set of eyes on the environment is beyond a cost approach.
One day the industry might learn from its mistakes and re-introduce the FE/O.
GLG Richardson ([email protected])
Kiwithrottlejockey,
Here’s a TinyURL of your link:
https://tinyurl.com/y92z6f98
For some obscure reason, PPRuNe hates the “blog that shall be nameless”!
Here’s a TinyURL of your link:
https://tinyurl.com/y92z6f98
For some obscure reason, PPRuNe hates the “blog that shall be nameless”!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I did time as a Second Officer in Qantas, part of my duty on long haul was to relieve the Flight Engineer so he could rest. This required simulator training and testing. This knowledge stood me in good stead for my entire career in the airline.
Warmtoast,
I immediately thought of that picture, when reading this thread. As fans of "Strategic Air Command" know, the FE with his back to the camera is Harry Morgan aka Colonel Potter from MASH.
Here's a great 360º virtual image - "Never seen so many bl**din' dials!":
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...0Engineer.html
I immediately thought of that picture, when reading this thread. As fans of "Strategic Air Command" know, the FE with his back to the camera is Harry Morgan aka Colonel Potter from MASH.
Here's a great 360º virtual image - "Never seen so many bl**din' dials!":
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...0Engineer.html
kiwithrottlejockey
On the topic of flight engineers, there is a website I can highly recommend. It contains an absolute mine of information about a career as a flight engineer, including a virtual book written by a former flight engineer uploaded to the site in the form of 9 huge PDF documents covering what would be nine substantial chapters if it was ever to be published in print form.
On the topic of flight engineers, there is a website I can highly recommend. It contains an absolute mine of information about a career as a flight engineer, including a virtual book written by a former flight engineer uploaded to the site in the form of 9 huge PDF documents covering what would be nine substantial chapters if it was ever to be published in print form.
In fact the PDF's are almost book "ready"..
The pictures and illustrations are amazing. And it really is substantial, book would be probably be a good 400+ pages!
Things I learned so far:
DC-8 had no backup hydraulic system
DC-8 more aerodynamically stable than 707
DC-8 stopover at Alice Springs was incredulous!
DC-8 could do FL410 but as service ceiling was rare in practice
DC-10 rear mount engine was truly rear-mounted (in case of catastrophic failure)
The golden era of flying changed for the author around 1973, when transitioning from the DC-8 to DC-10, after that much of the excitement went downhill
A lot of training (I guess common at the time) was in the real a/c
Full motions Sims introduced around 1966... (cost around $0.5K million + $0.1K Million for housing)
Layovers could be up to six days as intercontinental flights were much more infrequent up until the early 70's, after this, with the DC-10/747 they became much less common (and much less fun) as frequencies were ramped up.
Much more...
India Four Two (your #38)
Fascinating, but panel only seems to run to dials in columns for six prop engines - where are the four jet engines controlled from?
Here's a great 360º virtual image - "Never seen so many bl**din' dials!":
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...0Engineer.html
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...0Engineer.html