August 1978
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August 1978
The closest of shaves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9YzsO_ZPGI
He ripped up the rulebook and saved the bacon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9YzsO_ZPGI
He ripped up the rulebook and saved the bacon!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Let me get this right. One engine out on a four-engined Perf A aircraft? The comment about the engineer spraying water into all four engines has me puzzled as well.
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Let me get this right. One engine out on a four-engined Perf A aircraft? The comment about the engineer spraying water into all four engines has me puzzled as well.
NASA has done recent study on using the technique again: Water Injection Feasibility for Boeing 747 Aircraft.
Cutting the water injection to all four seems to be the source of their problems in this case.
From an old PPRuNe thread:
On 12-8-1978 the OA411 flights from Athens Hellinicon (LGAT) airport experienced an engine flameout (engine two) during takeoff (at v1).
Additionally even though the takeoff procedure included the use of "water methanol injection" providing additional thrust during the very hot Athens august afternoon, due to cockpit miscommunication, the flight engineer turned off the injection just around V1.
The airplane eventually took off at Vr at the end of the runway just barely managing to pass the first hill (209ft) at 215ft (climb rate less than 200ft/min). During climb, engine 3, also suffered damage and become inoperational.
Under pilot's orders, the landing gear was not retracted due to the fear of drag from the huge landing gear doors opening. This was against company SOPs.
He continued on a level flight aiming for the nearest uninhabited hill near Piraeus but the flight engineer did manage to get a bit more power, thus increasing IAS and letting him reach the sea where he began dumping fuel and eventually retracting the landing gears performing a successful go-around.
Boeing did run the scenario many times in simulators all resulting in a crash ...
Additionally even though the takeoff procedure included the use of "water methanol injection" providing additional thrust during the very hot Athens august afternoon, due to cockpit miscommunication, the flight engineer turned off the injection just around V1.
The airplane eventually took off at Vr at the end of the runway just barely managing to pass the first hill (209ft) at 215ft (climb rate less than 200ft/min). During climb, engine 3, also suffered damage and become inoperational.
Under pilot's orders, the landing gear was not retracted due to the fear of drag from the huge landing gear doors opening. This was against company SOPs.
He continued on a level flight aiming for the nearest uninhabited hill near Piraeus but the flight engineer did manage to get a bit more power, thus increasing IAS and letting him reach the sea where he began dumping fuel and eventually retracting the landing gears performing a successful go-around.
Boeing did run the scenario many times in simulators all resulting in a crash ...
It sounds like the old days of the One-Eleven requirements to ensure barrels of demineralised water were available anywhere in the network that you flew. A right nause. I remember standing not too far behind a Tarom One-Eleven taking off from an elevated runway one day and getting utterly soaked as the water injection ejected streams of water in a field of spray about 100 feet behind the aircraft when the throttles were opened up. Aah, the joys. You don't get that nowadays....
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To OP, thanks for starting the thread, I had never heard of this one (undoubtedly because it was an "incident" rather than an accident ) in spite of being an avid reader of air-safety bulletins for many more years than I have flown commercially.
If the # 3 man did indeed cut the water-meth it sounds like a very lucky escape from an almighty cluster-youknowwhat
If the # 3 man did indeed cut the water-meth it sounds like a very lucky escape from an almighty cluster-youknowwhat
Sorry, guys, just in from pub here but WTF are you lot talking about?
Water/water meth injection? Never had that on any B747 I flew (and that was pretty much every one except the SP). Argosy yes.
Did he just have an EFATO?
Or have I missed something?
Water/water meth injection? Never had that on any B747 I flew (and that was pretty much every one except the SP). Argosy yes.
Did he just have an EFATO?
Or have I missed something?
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Water/water meth injection? Never had that on any B747 I flew
...
Or have I missed something?
...
Or have I missed something?
Someone has very kindly posted a nice summary of the 747 water injection system: B747-200 Water Injection Take Off.
This very complicated water injection system could be used with the following JT9D engines on the 747 :
JT9D-3A, Dry T/O rating 43.500 lbs. Wet rating 45.000 lbs.
JT9D-7 and -7H, Dry T/O rating 45.500 lbs. Wet rating 47.000 lbs.
JT9D-7A and 7AH, Dry T/O rating 46.150 lbs. Wet rating 47.670 lbs.
JT9D-7F, Dry T/O rating 46.750 lbs. Wet rating 48.650 lbs.
JT9D-3A, Dry T/O rating 43.500 lbs. Wet rating 45.000 lbs.
JT9D-7 and -7H, Dry T/O rating 45.500 lbs. Wet rating 47.000 lbs.
JT9D-7A and 7AH, Dry T/O rating 46.150 lbs. Wet rating 47.670 lbs.
JT9D-7F, Dry T/O rating 46.750 lbs. Wet rating 48.650 lbs.
Guess you have missed something Basil - even the briefest Google search brings up multiple references about water-injection being used on some early 747s. For instance, a NASA paper on water-injection on Commercial Aircraft refers to it
"being used on Boeings first jet aircraft (the 707), and later on the largest commercial aircraft, (747-100 and 747-200 series fitted with JT9D-3AW and JT9D-7AW)"
Maybe "just in from the pub" is not the best time to post��
(You beat me to it CurtainTwitcher)
"being used on Boeings first jet aircraft (the 707), and later on the largest commercial aircraft, (747-100 and 747-200 series fitted with JT9D-3AW and JT9D-7AW)"
Maybe "just in from the pub" is not the best time to post��
(You beat me to it CurtainTwitcher)
Last edited by farsouth; 23rd Sep 2016 at 09:41.
Minor correction - it was not water/meth injection on JT9's. It was pure demineralised water only. Water/meth was used in piston engine ADI systems. Jets I am familiar with used demin water only and lots of it. Any water not used on TO had to be dumped to stop it freezing.
I seem to recall a BAC1-11 crashed on TO because someone put something other than water it the injection tank resulting in a dual engine failure.
I seem to recall a BAC1-11 crashed on TO because someone put something other than water it the injection tank resulting in a dual engine failure.
PanInternational 1-11 at Hamburg had part fuel and part water in the water tank. A third party organisation had serviced the water tank from barrels, at least one of which contained drained fuel that was not labeled.
On take off the water at the bottom of the tank flowed as normal until just as they rotated the fuel was reached. Both engines had massive overtemp and failed.
The aircraft landed on an autobahn but hit a bridge. 22 people died.
6 September 1971
On take off the water at the bottom of the tank flowed as normal until just as they rotated the fuel was reached. Both engines had massive overtemp and failed.
The aircraft landed on an autobahn but hit a bridge. 22 people died.
6 September 1971
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Yep Basil. Had a FO once on the F27 (Darts) who selected Water/meth on during the TO roll, despite the performance not requiring it. Interesting. Ref my earlier post; apologies. I didn't realise we were talking about water/meth, although I suppose I should have done.
