High Scoring Fighter Pilots in WWII
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding of the high scoring issue follows along with what others have said, with a few additions. I say what I do just as someone with an aviation background who has read a bunch of war books and has made a few notes in the last 20 years about the subject of kill claims, when I've seen info about it.
ACCIDENTAL OVERCLAIMING
I believe most of the German claims are realistic, within the boundaries of accidental, enthusiastic overclaiming, which everyone understandably did to some degree. (Although I don't know the details of kill confirmations in different air forces at different times.) So actual numbers might be, who knows, 25% lower.
CHEATING
Still, there were a few German pilots who deliberately claimed false victories. They weren't of course thinking about their post-war legacy, but just to get through the war. As in other activities, sometimes rivalries built up or cheating could get a guy ahead a little, or a bad culture is created within some group.
Evidence from the German side was weak though, even if some Americans were suspicious. One heard of a tale or two of some German ace in North Africa coming back with big claims but the armorers finding hardly any ammo expended. But this was vague rumour.
Recently I got some good confirmation though, in the book "A Higher Call - An Incredible True Story of Combat and Chivalry [...]" by Adam Makos, Larry Alexander(2011). This was the one about the German ace Franz Stigler letting a damaged B-17 go, plus the pilot's full wartime story. In interviews with Stigler before he passed away a few years back, he talked of the time in North Africa, where it was well known that a few pilots' scoring couldn't be true and they must be faking claims, with their junior wingmen going along with the aces' story to not rock the boat. (Since I think normally German pilots needed a witness - but that's from memory and I'm not certain.) I'd have to look through the book to find the details, but it was a time earlier in the war where 30 victories would guarantee a Knight's Cross and likely a promotion. This created a particular incentive, beyond just a chance at recognition, for some.
Some victories were claimed just because of a poor culture at some place at some time. Eg, one quote in the book:
NUMBER OF MISSIONS
This is the big one. German fighter pilots flew a massive number of missions. Or at least, if they survived they did. And if you look at kills per mission, Americans and Germans could score very similarly.
[Edit: Fixed my error in simple multiplication so reworked the following 2 paragraphs. No change in overall meaning to the argument though.]
Some American fighter pilots might do a single operational tour before being sent home for other duties. They often didn't get back into action before war's end. Bud Anderson's memoirs "To Fly and Fight" says it was originally 25 missions, then 200 hours, then 300 hours in the units he was in.
It was easy for a long range P-51 mission to be 4 hours, so say for the sake of argument that an American fighter pilot got 75 missions in 300 hours. From some of the statistics I've seen, a very very rough approximation is that a pilot might get into a fight every second mission, and a good pilot could shoot down an enemy every second time in battle. So there you get a 19 victory ace, not out of line with what one saw among the better scoring US Army Air Force aces.
Many German pilots kept rotating in and out of combat units throughout the war. Franz Stigler made 487 missions. Some of the top aces did 900 or more. Doing the same math 900*50%*50% = 225 victories. Not unlike what some of the top Germans achieved.
Some stats I had copies from "Horrido!" by Constable and Toliver (1968) follow: [Although I get the impression they were too likely to believe German claims too uncritically, perhaps while trying to discredit popular belief in an era where many thought that the German pilots were just a bunch of Nazi liars.]
Hartman the #1 ace did about 1400 missions, got into combat in over 800 of them, and got 352 victories. Barkhorn #2 did over 1800 missions, getting in combat 1104 times, and got credited with 301. Guenther Rall, #3, did 800 and 600 and got credited with 275 victories. Steinhoff, #23, did 933 missions and got credited with 176 victories.
They didn't always "win." Being close to or over home territory helped. Rall did 4 forced landings and 1 bailout. Steinhoff force landed 12 times. Marseille bailed out 6 times. Heinz Baer had 14 force landings and 4 bailouts. It worked for the RAF too during the Battle of Britain, like New Zealander Alan Deere (book "Nine Lives"), 22 victories, 10 probables, shot down or crash landed 7 times one source said. But if you were a hot shot American P-51 pilot doing long missions, did a bit of strafing and got a hole in the radiator, you sat out the war in Stalag Luft something or other.
As a comparison to the Germans, Robert S. Johnson (#1 American European theatre ace) did 91 or 92 missions and scored 28 victories.
Now I have cherry picked some of the more impressive cases, but the numbers do add up. More missions, more combats, more chances at scoring victories. (Although one would still likely adjust everyone somewhat for accidental overclaims).
German top scorers against the West (according to "The Ace Factor", Mike Spick, 1988 -- also just a little uncritical perhaps) were, other than for Marseille (158), all around 100-110 maximum. So the really big numbers were gathered on the massive Russian front, where everything happened on a larger scale.
Even amongst the Soviets, whose government we couldn't trust, some numbers make sense: The top Soviet scorer of WWII, Kozhedub, was said to have made 330 sorties, was in combat 120 times, and got 62 victories. The #2, Pokryshkin, was 360, 156, and 59.
It has been pointed out that among fighter pilots, there will always be that 5% (or whatever) who are so much better than everyone else, while the majority, even if skilled, will be just run of the mill. The same is true in sports or in running technology companies. The average German fighter pilot, well, on average, he died. I can't recall the statistics, but it might have been that only 10% of those every trained, survived the war. As happens in war, those who seem to get lucky and dodge bullets come away with amazing stories. After all, if we read a book by some US marine in the Pacific, or soldier in Northern Europe in WWII, we wouldn't be reading their book unless they had fantastic luck time after time, whatever their inherent skills were.
So to summarize: Even though there was accidental overclaiming in the heat of battle, and there were a few liars out there, the huge claims by top German fighter pilots can be understood by the truly incredible number of times they went off to combat!
ACCIDENTAL OVERCLAIMING
I believe most of the German claims are realistic, within the boundaries of accidental, enthusiastic overclaiming, which everyone understandably did to some degree. (Although I don't know the details of kill confirmations in different air forces at different times.) So actual numbers might be, who knows, 25% lower.
CHEATING
Still, there were a few German pilots who deliberately claimed false victories. They weren't of course thinking about their post-war legacy, but just to get through the war. As in other activities, sometimes rivalries built up or cheating could get a guy ahead a little, or a bad culture is created within some group.
Evidence from the German side was weak though, even if some Americans were suspicious. One heard of a tale or two of some German ace in North Africa coming back with big claims but the armorers finding hardly any ammo expended. But this was vague rumour.
Recently I got some good confirmation though, in the book "A Higher Call - An Incredible True Story of Combat and Chivalry [...]" by Adam Makos, Larry Alexander(2011). This was the one about the German ace Franz Stigler letting a damaged B-17 go, plus the pilot's full wartime story. In interviews with Stigler before he passed away a few years back, he talked of the time in North Africa, where it was well known that a few pilots' scoring couldn't be true and they must be faking claims, with their junior wingmen going along with the aces' story to not rock the boat. (Since I think normally German pilots needed a witness - but that's from memory and I'm not certain.) I'd have to look through the book to find the details, but it was a time earlier in the war where 30 victories would guarantee a Knight's Cross and likely a promotion. This created a particular incentive, beyond just a chance at recognition, for some.
Some victories were claimed just because of a poor culture at some place at some time. Eg, one quote in the book:
Roedel would remember, “I do not think that it was a matter of intentionally lying about their victories, but it was proven to have been gross negligence in claiming victories simply because a pilot shoots at an aircraft, maybe getting hits, but not confirming the crash or the pilot getting out. The situation stained all involved in the Group and that flight, and even Stigler and I were questioned. Bad business really.”
NUMBER OF MISSIONS
This is the big one. German fighter pilots flew a massive number of missions. Or at least, if they survived they did. And if you look at kills per mission, Americans and Germans could score very similarly.
[Edit: Fixed my error in simple multiplication so reworked the following 2 paragraphs. No change in overall meaning to the argument though.]
Some American fighter pilots might do a single operational tour before being sent home for other duties. They often didn't get back into action before war's end. Bud Anderson's memoirs "To Fly and Fight" says it was originally 25 missions, then 200 hours, then 300 hours in the units he was in.
It was easy for a long range P-51 mission to be 4 hours, so say for the sake of argument that an American fighter pilot got 75 missions in 300 hours. From some of the statistics I've seen, a very very rough approximation is that a pilot might get into a fight every second mission, and a good pilot could shoot down an enemy every second time in battle. So there you get a 19 victory ace, not out of line with what one saw among the better scoring US Army Air Force aces.
Many German pilots kept rotating in and out of combat units throughout the war. Franz Stigler made 487 missions. Some of the top aces did 900 or more. Doing the same math 900*50%*50% = 225 victories. Not unlike what some of the top Germans achieved.
Some stats I had copies from "Horrido!" by Constable and Toliver (1968) follow: [Although I get the impression they were too likely to believe German claims too uncritically, perhaps while trying to discredit popular belief in an era where many thought that the German pilots were just a bunch of Nazi liars.]
Hartman the #1 ace did about 1400 missions, got into combat in over 800 of them, and got 352 victories. Barkhorn #2 did over 1800 missions, getting in combat 1104 times, and got credited with 301. Guenther Rall, #3, did 800 and 600 and got credited with 275 victories. Steinhoff, #23, did 933 missions and got credited with 176 victories.
They didn't always "win." Being close to or over home territory helped. Rall did 4 forced landings and 1 bailout. Steinhoff force landed 12 times. Marseille bailed out 6 times. Heinz Baer had 14 force landings and 4 bailouts. It worked for the RAF too during the Battle of Britain, like New Zealander Alan Deere (book "Nine Lives"), 22 victories, 10 probables, shot down or crash landed 7 times one source said. But if you were a hot shot American P-51 pilot doing long missions, did a bit of strafing and got a hole in the radiator, you sat out the war in Stalag Luft something or other.
As a comparison to the Germans, Robert S. Johnson (#1 American European theatre ace) did 91 or 92 missions and scored 28 victories.
Now I have cherry picked some of the more impressive cases, but the numbers do add up. More missions, more combats, more chances at scoring victories. (Although one would still likely adjust everyone somewhat for accidental overclaims).
German top scorers against the West (according to "The Ace Factor", Mike Spick, 1988 -- also just a little uncritical perhaps) were, other than for Marseille (158), all around 100-110 maximum. So the really big numbers were gathered on the massive Russian front, where everything happened on a larger scale.
Even amongst the Soviets, whose government we couldn't trust, some numbers make sense: The top Soviet scorer of WWII, Kozhedub, was said to have made 330 sorties, was in combat 120 times, and got 62 victories. The #2, Pokryshkin, was 360, 156, and 59.
It has been pointed out that among fighter pilots, there will always be that 5% (or whatever) who are so much better than everyone else, while the majority, even if skilled, will be just run of the mill. The same is true in sports or in running technology companies. The average German fighter pilot, well, on average, he died. I can't recall the statistics, but it might have been that only 10% of those every trained, survived the war. As happens in war, those who seem to get lucky and dodge bullets come away with amazing stories. After all, if we read a book by some US marine in the Pacific, or soldier in Northern Europe in WWII, we wouldn't be reading their book unless they had fantastic luck time after time, whatever their inherent skills were.
So to summarize: Even though there was accidental overclaiming in the heat of battle, and there were a few liars out there, the huge claims by top German fighter pilots can be understood by the truly incredible number of times they went off to combat!
Last edited by pchapman; 8th Dec 2014 at 16:14.
